Group A Rover 3500 SD1/Vitesse - History & Whereabouts - Page 26

Jesper OH · 12 Sep 2008, 19:13 (Ref:2288341)

http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/VM...88/Image7.html
http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/VM...88/Image8.html

Finnish appreciation site covering Ahvehnisto Häminlinna in Finland. A picture of one of the Finnish Vitesses.

http://www.geocities.com/supersaloon...ora500-87.html

The '87 Kemora 500 has a Finnish Rover entered as Autorep Oy among the retirees. Harri Ruusu/Juhani Lammila/Matti Hiltunen as drivers. Kaj Bornebusch/Ulf Larsson finishing third overall and winning group A in the same event.

Jesper

KA · 16 Sep 2008, 10:33 (Ref:2291653)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Jeez KA, it's 240T's galore in the '87 shot (Vitesse left side shot). Looking to the back of the image it looks like there's an RS1600i lurking. wonder if there's any other pics od that year's championship around so we can see the other runners!

Back to topic.... is it safe to assume that Ulf Larsson took over the Bornebusch car in 1988 then or was this an additional car to the one Eva was racing? and I guess we're also reasonably confident that this car/those cars were the '86 Brit GP 1-2 finishers that later did Macau? Not sure if we centred on that or not?

Guys I think the Bornebush Sierra did do the '88 BTCC mini enduro and definitely did the TT correct?

As far as I can tell, the Bornebusch RS500 isn't in the results of the '88 Donington 1-hour BTCC race, or at least the version I've got. I've got a suspicion he might have appeared at the Silverstone season-opener, but don't have full results to hand. Apart from that, I think he did the Donington ETCC race and the TT- they did a full ETCC season in '88 with the Sierra, with the Rover making a couple of appearances.

I've got a very vague memory of seeing the Bornebusch car described as being the '86 TT winner- which could make sense, as presumably the white 'Istel' car at the TT was one of the 'South Pacific' cars which also would presumably have done duty at the British GP support with 'Herbie Clips' backing, and Macau. I've got a feeling it isn't the only car I've heard so described though....

KA · 16 Sep 2008, 10:44 (Ref:2291665)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/VM...88/Image7.html
http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/VM...88/Image8.html

Finnish appreciation site covering Ahvehnisto Häminlinna in Finland. A picture of one of the Finnish Vitesses.

http://www.geocities.com/supersaloon...ora500-87.html

The '87 Kemora 500 has a Finnish Rover entered as Autorep Oy among the retirees. Harri Ruusu/Juhani Lammila/Matti Hiltunen as drivers. Kaj Bornebusch/Ulf Larsson finishing third overall and winning group A in the same event.

Jesper

It took me a while to spot that one because of the way it's split across the page break...

That's a good find- I remember posting a link earlier in the thread to some other pics from the Kemora race in which that car was very distantly visible and speculating about it being the Bornebusch car- I hadn't seen the race results and realised there was a second Rover there...

I'd like to see a closer shot of that one though, if anyone can find one to see if we can figure out it's origins...

KA · 16 Sep 2008, 11:06 (Ref:2291688)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

I remember posting a link earlier in the thread to some other pics from the Kemora race in which that car was very distantly visible and speculating about it being the Bornebusch car- I hadn't seen the race results and realised there was a second Rover there...

Just re-read Jesper's posts and realised the pics he linked to were from '88 and at a different meeting-I really must pay more attention!

The pic I linked to earlier was '87, presumably matching the race result Jesper posted, but looks like the same car....
http://personal.inet.fi/surf/mpuumal.../M1_slide5.htm

KA · 16 Sep 2008, 11:22 (Ref:2291706)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Finnish appreciation site covering Ahvehnisto Häminlinna in Finland. A picture of one of the Finnish Vitesses.

From the same source, 1986....

http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/Hm...86/Image6.html

VIVA GT · 16 Sep 2008, 13:00 (Ref:2291777)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

http://www.teambild.se/arkiv/details...52&mode=search

Ulf Larsson in the Rover at Ring Knutstorp might be from the July or August Kvällspostens Newsrace run on the 5th-7th August 1988. A look in the background of the picture has what decidedly looks like Kaj Bornebusch in his RS500 in full Royale Belge Spa and Zolder ETCC paint job, which would fit nicely with an early August date. Eva was driving the car in the September '88 ETCC race at Nogaro, where I think it was still a Bornebusch car. Larsson was Kaj Bornebusch' regular co-driver during most ETCC rounds in 1988, so I simply think Larsson either rented or loaned the car for the Knutstorp event.

Jesper

Ulf Larsson built, engineered & ran the RS500 for Bornebusch, presumably the drive was in a way payment for that.

**chunterer** · 23 Sep 2008, 18:15 (Ref:2296299)

I dunno about that Finnish car KA....

It doesn't 'look' TWR in origin although I can't substantiate that hunch.

Could it possibly be an ex Rouse, Linden (not the well covered Spice, McGrath, Scarborough one) or even one of the ex Nickel German cars?

KA · 24 Sep 2008, 08:54 (Ref:2296720)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

I dunno about that Finnish car KA....

It doesn't 'look' TWR in origin although I can't substantiate that hunch.

Could it possibly be an ex Rouse, Linden (not the well covered Spice, McGrath, Scarbporough one) or even one of the ex Nickel German cars?

No, I know what you mean. The Swedish Bornebusch car is definitely TWR, but this Finnish one, I'm not so sure.....

How many Rouse cars were there? Didn't someone suggest there had been two 'ICS' cars, one written off and the other the ex-Rouse/Hall chassis that went on to be the Tim Harvey Istel car. The other Rouse car I can think of is the Sawyer-Hoare car which ended up with Tim Slako in Australia. Any others?

Did we establish the origins of the other Linden car?

Very tempting though to speculate that it's one of the various German cars- they seem to have fallen totally off the radar apart from the one Alex mentioned a while back as being in the BMW collection in Germany, presumably acquired during their ownership of MG-Rover...

KA · 9 Oct 2008, 14:29 (Ref:2307601)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

So did we ever get and decent leads as to the chassis identity of this particular car?

Bloody memory.....

Back to the mysterious Portuguese Bastos car- killing some time last night looking for Rover pics, found several references (I really wish I understood Portuguese...) to the car being driven by a guy named Armindo Correia in historic events in the last couple of years. A quick Google image search for him came up with more pics of the car in plain white, http://www.outrosmotores.com/imagem/...0_DSC04020.jpg

and a further search turned up more pics in Bastos colours,
http://escapelivre.forumotion.com/de...braga-t206.htm

on assorted different Portuguese forums showing the car competing in what seems to be a 6-hour historic race at Braga last year, but posting a DNF. What's interesting is this comment in what seems to be a discussion of the reason for the DNF on one of them (Google translation)

"The Rover is the TWR 011 (original).

Like any of the European touring car is equipped with a deposit of fuel ATL.

These tanks are filled with foam, for curves in the movement of fuel not destabilize the balance of the car, and also not to miss in the fuel pipe of "fishing" in long curves in support.

The problem is that a car with original almost 20 years, the foam began to crumble and clog the pipes of power".

Hmm, "The Rover is the TWR 011 (original)" Have we got a potential chassis number at last....?

GBRM · 9 Oct 2008, 14:34 (Ref:2307603)

Looks possible KA, good work!!

KA · 9 Oct 2008, 14:57 (Ref:2307622)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBRM

Looks possible KA, good work!!

Looking back through the thread, if the Portuguese car is #011, then we've already got some probable history on this one- apparently 011 was one of the pair of Mobil cars used at Bathurst in '84. A post earlier in the thread suggested #011 was a new build for Bathurst, (the other car was 004, which eventually became the Dave Carvell 1987 BTCC car and ended up in Belgium).

Interesting thing is that the suggestion from the son of the former owner in Portugal is that it may have been a Bastos car- it went to Portugal in 1986. Of course, I'd be surprised if a car built new in late '84 for Bathurst didn't get further use, as a Bastos car or otherwise, in '85....

Early in the thread (about two-and-a-half years ago!) a link to an advert on www.racecarsdirect.com was posted showing #011 for sale- of course, the link's long dead- wonder if the seller was Portuguese, as the Portuguese car does seem to have changed hands in the last couple of years

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2008, 11:24 (Ref:2308293)

Top one KA!!

Good also to have a little reminder of where we got to back along with chassis histories!!

I shall add this info into the Archive Thread!!!

As these cars were already in the Antipodoes in late '84 then 011 (maybe 004as well?) might've done the early '85 Kiwi races, oh hang on haven't we already discovered the identity of the cars that did that?!!!

Ooh gawd......

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2008, 11:41 (Ref:2308305)

Found nice little link of 3 Bastos coloured cars at The SD1 Club's event 2 years ago at Gaydon.

They potter around the centre.

Brian's is 014 according to our info, but the other car is supposed to be Ken Clarke's?

I thought Ken just did rebuilds for others, like Brian's and the other couple of cars we know about?

http://www.roversd1club.net/av/bastos%20idea%202.mpg

And if you're reading Ken, love it if you could spare some time soon to give us some more chassis identities??

KA · 10 Oct 2008, 14:56 (Ref:2308415)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Top one KA!!

Good also to have a little reminder of where we got to back along with chassis histories!!

I shall add this info into the Archive Thread!!!

As these cars were already in the Antipodoes in late '84 then 011 (maybe 004as well?) might've done the early '85 Kiwi races, oh hang on haven't we already discovered the identity of the cars that did that?!!!

Ooh gawd......

I'd have to go digging back through the thread, but I think we established that the early '85 Kiwi races were a single-car effort (white car with 'More Magazine' sponsorship), so presumably one of the Bathurst cars?
I really wish I could remember what details were given for #011 in that ad on www.racecarsonline.com back in early 2006- I suspect that the confirmation about the Portuguese Oliveira/Nogueira etc car being #011 lies in that ad...

Here's a thought- the ex-Dave Carvell car #004 was the other of the Bathurst pair (Race #61, Allam/Hahne). On the Del Lines page of the SD1 Club website, http://www.roversd1club.net/features...e-ianlines.asp there's a pic of it, presumably in Lines' yard circa 1985/6 (there's a corner of a red van in background, which looks like the 'Atlantic Hire' rally service barge in one of the other pics) still in Mobil colours.

If it's still in Mobil colours, then that suggests #004 isn't the car that raced in NZ (or it would have been in 'More' colours), and that if the NZ car was ex-Bathurst, then it was presumably #011?

Wish I could find some proof to support that though....

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2008, 15:04 (Ref:2308423)

Yes you're right KA about single car effort in '85, i've got my years muddled up I think?!

I'm thinking of the early 1986 New Zealand races?

I'm sure, that whilst this isn't necessarily significant, when I watched the video of the Wellington race recently the interior of the Peanut Slab cars were plain white. I was looking for signs of blue/green, light blue or even red/white for clues?

Maybe suggests these 2 cars were the 2 Bathurst Mobil '84 cars perhaps?

I guess that we're only going to get the real id's when Ken gets back to us about the 84/85 runners!!!!!

OT, there was also a couple of vaguely familiar looking Escorts and possibly also Capris in that race which needs mentioning on their respective threads!!!!

KA · 10 Oct 2008, 15:17 (Ref:2308435)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes you're right KA about single car effort in '85, i've got my years muddled up I think?!

I'm thinking of the early 1986 New Zealand races?

I'm sure, that whilst this isn't necessarily significant, when I watched the video of the Wellington race recently the interior of the Peanut Slab cars were plain white. I was looking for signs of blue/green, light blue or even red/white for clues?

Maybe suggests these 2 cars were the 2 Bathurst Mobil '84 cars perhaps?

I guess that we're only going to get the real id's when Ken gets back to us about the 84/85 runners!!!!!

From memory, NZ '85 was a single white car, sponsored by 'More', NZ '86 was a pair of brown cars backed by Whitakers.
Hard to tell from the pic on http://www.roversd1club.net/features...e-ianlines.asp, but the interior of the Allam/Hahne Bathurst car might be black- I've got a much clearer shot, but it's not on this PC.

If I remember rightly, Helder Oliveira's son told me (via PM on another forum) his dad bought the TWR car we now think is #011 in late '85/early 86, in plain white (there are pics back in the thread). I reckon that makes it less likely to have been one of the Whitakers cars in NZ over the winter of 85/6.

As you say, it really needs input from Ken or past/present owners of individual cars to sort this one out.

KA · 10 Oct 2008, 15:24 (Ref:2308442)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

OT, there was also a couple of vaguely familiar looking Escorts and possibly also Capris in that race which needs mentioning on their respective threads!!!!

OT- Not sure about the Capris, but the red/blue ex-Richard Belcher John Jeffreys Engineering car definitely went to NZ with Andrew Bagnall- it appeared at Bathurst in '86, and I've got a pic of it somewhere taken at one of the '85/6 NZ races. Bagnall's 'Motorsport Pacific' outfit also owned the ex-Rouse XR4Ti that went down under, though I don't know if they actually took it out there in the first place

**chunterer** · 17 Oct 2008, 10:47 (Ref:2314603)

Hopefully Ken may get some time to help us now the season is almost over?

Can anyone who knows him give him a nudge please?

Yes, there is definitely a John Jeffries coloured Escort in the video I saw, so that clarified that one then, thanks KA!!

I'll find the Escort thread and copy in as there's another car I want to question!!

MG Rover Sport · 18 Oct 2008, 22:08 (Ref:2315500)

Hi guys, and apologies for my recent absence. You've all certainly kept this topic moving along, and I always pop in to read your findings. There's some absolute belters here you must admit.

I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to do this, but at the risk of getting banned or the post deleted, I have about 40 touring car programmes that I will be listing on a well known online auction site. They include mainly European and British Touring Car Championship meetings, so there are plenty of Rovers, Volvos, BMWs, Capris and all from the 1980-1986 era. A few of them have the results sheets with them as well.

This should possibly be in the Armchair Enthusiast forum, but as they are all relative to this thread, I thought I'd place this post here.

Can one of the admin team let me know if I'm allowed to post a link to my listings or not. Failing that, drop me a PM and I'll get a list knocked together.

I'm simply trying to streamline my collection, and cannot think of anywhere more that I'd like them to end up, than with a member on here.

Apologies if I have contravened any forum rules - fingers crossed.

KA · 22 Oct 2008, 11:11 (Ref:2318202)

Don't think I've mentioned these before, but over the weekend looking for those Wellington RS1600i's chunterer mentioned, I found these- an album of 70-odd photos, mostly b/w but some colour from the '86 Nissan-Mobil series in NZ (Pukekohe rther than Wellington I think, including several of the TWR entries in Whitaker's Peanut Slab colours...
(Some more gems on here- lots of NZ 635s and Holdens, the Rouse XR4Ti, one of the Escorts, and a Dick Johnson Mustang in JPS colours...

)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...7606882601980/

KA · 23 Oct 2008, 10:27 (Ref:2318918)

**chunterer** · 24 Oct 2008, 09:02 (Ref:2319700)

Excellent finds again there KA,

Going slightly OT, what annoys me is that with their being plenty of well looked after Vitesses about as well as 635's and other Group A kit, why on earth can't we have some proper invitation Group A events at the major classic meetings?!

I know we've already chucked our tuppence worth into the ring re the Silverstone Classic but there are other events at home and overseas that could host races, which might remind people of how good these period cars were compared to the more modern Super Tourers.

GBRM · 24 Oct 2008, 09:20 (Ref:2319726)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Going slightly OT, what annoys me is that with their being plenty of well looked after Vitesses about as well as 635's and other Group A kit, why on earth can't we have some proper invitation Group A events at the major classic meetings?!

And why for the BTCC 50th anniversary did they use fakes and modified cars instead of real ones that do exist??!!

**chunterer** · 24 Oct 2008, 09:29 (Ref:2319734)

Yes, I saw some images of some of the cars 'on show' and I did wonder why some of them were there?

Simply being a model of type I.E. a Sierra or Dolomite, isn't the same as being a car that actually competed or one that is actually to the same spec (now) complete with period bodywork or livery.

KA · 24 Oct 2008, 10:43 (Ref:2319815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Excellent finds again there KA,

Going slightly OT, what annoys me is that with their being plenty of well looked after Vitesses about as well as 635's and other Group A kit, why on earth can't we have some proper invitation Group A events at the major classic meetings?!

I know we've already chucked our tuppence worth into the ring re the Silverstone Classic but there are other events at home and overseas that could host races, which might remind people of how good these period cars were compared to the more modern Super Tourers.

There are obviously cars out there and some of them are being raced but there doesn't seem to be any kind of orgainisation with a specific interest in Historic Group A cars, with an emphasis on original cars presented in historically-correct spec and paintjobs in the way that there is for the Group C sportscars.

The real backbone of interest in Group A at the moment seems to be in Australia- in fact, looking at the pics available on the web from some of the Australian and NZ historic meetings, there seem to be quite a lot of ex-BTCC/ETCC cars there, and not just those that went 'down under' in period. The ex-Tim Harvey Labatt's Sierra recently went to Robert Tweedie in Australia:
http://www.ibcholdings.com.au/cars/s...990/index.html
(and I think a couple of other RS500s that were in Martin Johnston's collection have headed to Aus as well?)

I reckon it'll need someone to actually grasp the idea of organising a Group A race at one of the major historic meetings, and maybe to try and put together some kind of deal to help bring a few cars and drivers over from Europe and Australia/NZ for the occasion before it'll really take off over here.

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