Lites / LMP3 - Page 26

blankfile · 19 Oct 2015, 20:40 (Ref:3584184)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Since nobody's mentioned it yet, the Ginetta handily outran the Ligier at Estoril. Consistently around a second faster, sometimes more - guess getting it down to weight went further than expected.

Also of note: they were consistantly faster than the gt's. the ginetta seems to have improved quite a bit. but i'm not sure about counting out the ligier yet.

I guess we'll see next year, they might be remarkably well balanced which would be nice

Rcz · 19 Oct 2015, 21:32 (Ref:3584193)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

IMSA should do something similar and have a series with P3, 'GT3 Am' + whoever wants to enter its Lambo Trofeo, Ferrari Challenge or Porsche Cup cars.

No factory or full time Pro drivers allowed, just bronze/silver/part-time gold ones. Gold only with bronze, rest is okay.

Have 5 or 6 races and pick any of the non street events in the US (Daytona, Sebring, Laguna Seca, Lime Rock, Watkins Glen, Road America, VIR, CotA, Road Atlanta).

Yeah, that's what IMSA should do, to get more P3 cars into the states.

However I would replace the GT3 am class with a GT4/GTS/GTU class so not to take away GT3 cars away from the main series.

Akrapovic · 19 Oct 2015, 22:24 (Ref:3584203)

Ginetta ran pro drivers and a works team. The Ligier was the opposite of all of those things. The Ginetta should've won. It'd be embarrassing otherwise.

Ephaeton · 20 Oct 2015, 06:34 (Ref:3584279)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ginetta ran pro drivers and a works team. The Ligier was the opposite of all of those things. The Ginetta should've won. It'd be embarrassing otherwise.

Not necessarily; the Ginetta did experience improvements from the first version we saw. The Ligier being up on the Ginetta was a no-brainer as compared to the first raced version of the Ginetta. Now? Hmm. We'll have to collect more data.

FormulaFox · 20 Oct 2015, 08:56 (Ref:3584294)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ginetta ran pro drivers and a works team. The Ligier was the opposite of all of those things. The Ginetta should've won. It'd be embarrassing otherwise.

The Ginetta was two seconds faster at the Paul Ricard race than it was at the preseason test. There is far more to this than the driver lineup.

tux · 20 Oct 2015, 12:32 (Ref:3584323)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

The Ginetta was two seconds faster at the Paul Ricard race than it was at the preseason test. There is far more to this than the driver lineup.

It was still being built at the pre season test, of course its faster now.

Also worth noting that earlier in the race week Ginetta took part in the private test day.

FormulaFox · 20 Oct 2015, 19:13 (Ref:3584403)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tux

It was still being built at the pre season test, of course its faster now.

It was also overweight prior to the Paul Ricard race weekend, which will have made a difference.

Akrapovic · 20 Oct 2015, 21:21 (Ref:3584427)

I don't recall saying the Ginetta hasn't improved. In fact I'm sure t has, because the first version of it was a bit of a under developed lump really. So of corse the Ginetta has improved. But at Estoril you had a works supported Ginetta with works drivers, versus the Ligiers first race with a new team and a group of am drivers. Of course the Ginetta won. But it hasn't stopped teams heavily criticising the Ginetta and buying cars elsewhere.

Graham Goodwin · 20 Oct 2015, 23:56 (Ref:3584463)

The winning Ginetta had Mike Simpson and Gaetan Paletou aboard - Mike is a Ginetta Factory driver, that's true but Gaetan was in his first year of racing as a GT Academy winner - Estoril was his first EVER race win.

As a mark of Gaetan's lack of experience his Le Mans start with Greaves was his first EVER race start in his home country!

The title winning car had Charlie Robertson and Sir Chris Hoy aboard - Charlie has had success in other racing but this was his first year in anything approaching a prototype - added to that he is 18 years old.

Chris may have more gold medals to his name than any other Briton but in racing terms he is a rookie.

Of the Ligier boys Thomas Accary is a reigning VdeV Prototype (CN) Champion and twice runner up in the FIA GT3 Championship. Gary Findlay's scored Pole positions and race wins in VdeV CN class and in Formula Ford. Eric Trouillet too has VdeV CN class podiums to his name.

This was not as unbalanced a contest as you describe!

The Ligier did well for its first race with its new team in uncharted territory but the fact remains, with experienced small prototype drivers aboard it was slower than the Ginetta and was eventually well beaten by the winning car. A wrong tyre call from LNT for the #3 car likely cost them a decent shot at a 1,2

bentley speed 8 · 21 Oct 2015, 05:50 (Ref:3584512)

I think the biggest problem for Ginetta is their customer support. Speed Factory were very dissatisfied with it, and now they have switched to the Ligier.

FormulaFox · 21 Oct 2015, 09:22 (Ref:3584538)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

I think the biggest problem for Ginetta is their customer support. Speed Factory were very dissatisfied with it, and now they have switched to the Ligier.

Customer support has almost certainly been hampered by the rush to build enough cars. Ginetta is not experienced in supplying purpose-built racing machinery on this sort of scale in such a short period.

Doesn't help that they won't have been able to draw resources away from supporting their road cars and the one-make racecars built off them.

Jam3s · 21 Oct 2015, 10:14 (Ref:3584542)

The problem with the Ginetta isn't necessarily it's speed, it's the build quality of the thing, it just falls far short of the quality of the Ligier and as a result is likely to be hampered by unnecessary gremlins are the km's build up. It was a rush job, I don't think there's any denying that.

wdave0 · 21 Oct 2015, 14:07 (Ref:3584590)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam3s

The problem with the Ginetta isn't necessarily it's speed, it's the build quality of the thing, it just falls far short of the quality of the Ligier and as a result is likely to be hampered by unnecessary gremlins are the km's build up. It was a rush job, I don't think there's any denying that.

I for one hope they get it together and are not overwhelmed out of competition as I believe a series will be better with multiple different cars.

FormulaFox · 21 Oct 2015, 21:22 (Ref:3584656)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdave0

I for one hope they get it together and are not overwhelmed out of competition as I believe a series will be better with multiple different cars.

The win in Estoril will have been a confidence booster - both for Ginetta and their customers. After that showing there's no reason they can't stay competitive as long as they don't give up.

BullMan · 22 Oct 2015, 02:38 (Ref:3584693)

If you guys listened to MWM today, Graham mentioned this conversation about the Ginetta v. Ligier drivers in a roundabout way. I chuckled.

**FIRE** · 22 Oct 2015, 10:27 (Ref:3584722)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Customer support has almost certainly been hampered by the rush to build enough cars. Ginetta is not experienced in supplying purpose-built racing machinery on this sort of scale in such a short period.

Doesn't help that they won't have been able to draw resources away from supporting their road cars and the one-make racecars built off them.

It's a lower level but they have experience in supplying parts for their Ginetta series.

tux · 22 Oct 2015, 12:39 (Ref:3584740)

Ginetta customer service in their one make series seems to be very good to be fair, cant imagine it being anything other in LMP3 as well.

pablocomics · 22 Oct 2015, 14:32 (Ref:3584757)

The problem on the Ginetta could be the the same of the first cost capped Lola LMP2. I remember a few teams talking about the poor work on those frames and some bad materials used on them.
Maybe it was the same on the first Ginettas because the car was constructed in no time

FormulaFox · 22 Oct 2015, 18:43 (Ref:3584793)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIRE

It's a lower level but they have experience in supplying parts for their Ginetta series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tux

Ginetta customer service in their one make series seems to be very good to be fair, cant imagine it being anything other in LMP3 as well.

The issue isn't whether or not they've done well in servicing their one-make series, it's that they have to manage the LMP3 IN ADDITION TO all of that. They've been doing the one-make thing for years - if they hadn't gotten that down to a science by now nobody would ever do business with them. But by adding the LMP3 -which is also a type of racecar they had little experience with- they've taken on EXTRA work beyond what they're set up for. That wouldn't be an issue for a big manufacturer, but Ginetta's (still) a small company. It will only be able to stretch itself so far before it breaks.

Fortunately, it does not seem that they've stretched too far here, but the early issues indicate to me that they pushed themselves VERY close to their limit.

Mike E · 4 Nov 2015, 09:58 (Ref:3588070)

It seems things have turned a bit sour between Ginetta and some of their LMP3 partners, specifically ORECA and the ACO. They are about to start selling a Chevy engined version of their LMP3 (called G57), and will only supply rolling chassis LMP3 spec cars to customers. Customers will have to source the engine directly from ORECA.
That's my understanding, anyway.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/1...pe-market.html

DSC's thoughts here:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/1...o-neutral.html

Not sure where this G57 might run...

Graham Goodwin · 4 Nov 2015, 10:09 (Ref:3588073)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

I think the biggest problem for Ginetta is their customer support. Speed Factory were very dissatisfied with it, and now they have switched to the Ligier.

If you read the stories today you'll find that it wasn't the Ginetta customer support that was the issue

TzeiTzei · 4 Nov 2015, 13:09 (Ref:3588103)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike E

Not sure where this G57 might run...

The new LMPC?

TheMightyM · 4 Nov 2015, 14:08 (Ref:3588114)

So does the ACO now name an additional LMP3 constructor to replace Ginetta?

tux · 4 Nov 2015, 14:13 (Ref:3588116)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

So does the ACO now name an additional LMP3 constructor to replace Ginetta?

I expect not at this time. You can still buy and run Ginettas but its just a little bit harder now.

Mike E · 4 Nov 2015, 14:56 (Ref:3588127)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

The new LMPC?

Good call.

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