The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Flo aus N

So its very likely, that Toyota will again have a very small budget compared to Audi or Porsche...

I'd long taken that as read......

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I find that very hard to believe, since they always said that they could recover more with the current TS030 hybrid system than allowed by the rules. So I assumed that they would go for the 8MJ option.

The next paragraph explains the non-decision?

"For example, if you target 6mJ and you manage only 5mJ, you don’t get fuel advantage over the last 1MJ of hybrid and you lose the fuel difference between 4 and 6. So at some point, you would be better to go for the 4MJ class."

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

It just means that they are probably a bit behind schedule. As far as the budget is concerned, there are rather suggestions in the press that the mother company in Japan is possibly going to inject more money into the operation (according to the French AutoHebo magazine).

Print version? If not, link please.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by deggis

Print version? If not, link please.

Issue No. 1925 of September 4th, page 37 (available in digital form)

Et comme la maison mère semble plus convaincue que par le passé par le bienfondé de ce projet, les budgets débloqués devraient être supérieurs Ã* ceux investis pour la TS030. "Un engagement, né en fin d'année dernière, se développe confirme l'ingénieur français. Et notre performance au Mans, même si nous n'avons pas gagné, a généré dans le groupe Toyota beaucoup de retombées positives. L'Endurance sied Ã* la marque et Ã* ses valeurs, et tout le monde souhaite y être impliqué sur le long terme."

[deggis]

Confusing translation (Google) but is that based on what Vasselon (?) said to them or just opinion of the magazine.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by deggis

Confusing translation (Google) but is that based on what Vasselon (?) said to them or just opinion of the magazine.

You should ask the journalist who carried out Vasselon's interview

There is no definite indication that Toyota WILL increase their budget next year. The relevant part about the POSSIBLE budget increase is actually presented as the journalist's opinion or understanding of what Vasselon supposedly said or hinted to. Vasselon basically says that the LM results had a positive impact on the Toyota Group and that "everybody" (at Toyota) is willing to commit to Endurance racing for the long term. Whether this necessarily means a budget increase is debatable...

[TF110]

Anyone have a listen to the interview with Vasselon on radio lemans before Sao Paulo? I downloaded the mp3 but the audio seems to not work. Anyway it seems reasonable to expect the 8mj option. With the coments from Hisatake Murata of "let us use the hybrid freely", theres little doubt they will go that route. Previous comments state they could easily store double the current energy, which adds up to 3.5 x 2 MJ (7 MJ aound LeMans). Then theres also the confirmation of double hybrid systems (front and rear) so harvesting that amount of energy will be much easier as the front brakes dissipate more speed and therefor are able to collect more energy than the rear. But with a double system they perhaps are harvesting energy from both the front and rear. This will definitely make it easier to capture 1.14 MJ per hybrid zone (8MJ ÷ 7 hybrid zones at LeMans).

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Anyone have a listen to the interview with Vasselon on radio lemans before Sao Paulo? I downloaded the mp3 but the audio seems to not work.

Seems to be a real mp3 file, but it's just empty/silent file... I sent feedback on the forum:

http://radiolemans.0157.org/content/...erview-problem

Anyway it seems reasonable to expect the 8mj option. With the coments from Hisatake Murata of "let us use the hybrid freely", theres little doubt they will go that route. Previous comments state they could easily store double the current energy, which adds up to 3.5 x 2 MJ (7 MJ aound LeMans). Then theres also the confirmation of double hybrid systems (front and rear) so harvesting that amount of energy will be much easier as the front brakes dissipate more speed and therefor are able to collect more energy than the rear. But with a double system they perhaps are harvesting energy from both the front and rear. This will definitely make it easier to capture 1.14 MJ per hybrid zone (8MJ ÷ 7 hybrid zones at LeMans).

Vasselon might have used the 4MJ and 6MJ as an examples and not saying they'll be selecting between those, but if they did select less than 8MJ, you'd still as a fan disagree and tell them to select the most ambitious maximum option? Amazing.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

This will definitely make it easier to capture 1.14 MJ per hybrid zone (8MJ ÷ 7 hybrid zones at LeMans).

Unless I am totally mistaken, the notion of "hybrid zone" will totally disappear under the new rules. Assuming Toyota will use two hybrid systems designed to recover energy under braking, they should be able to do that at every braking zone.

Now, Vasselon's comments as reported above by deggis clearly suggest that Toyota may ultimately follow a less extreme route as regards the hybrid option.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Seems to be a real mp3 file, but it's just empty/silent file... I sent feedback on the forum:

http://radiolemans.0157.org/content/...erview-problem


Vasselon might have used the 4MJ and 6MJ as an examples and not saying they'll be selecting between those, but if they did select less than 8MJ, you'd still as a fan disagree and tell them to select the most ambitious maximum option? Amazing.

Can you take the personal digs elsewhere? Lets review the reasoning;

They already recover 3.5 MJ per lap now, and if you follow the thread at all you can take a look at comments from Toyota's head that they could store double that already. Thats 7 MJ.

They assume Porsche will "only" be able to do 4 MJ with their single hybrid system.

They've confirmed two hybrid systems for front and rear. That wouldn't make for practical sense having both for 4 MJ or 6 MJ if their current single system is capable of double what it is currently (equal to 7 MJ).

I don't know where you get the bolded part of your post from. I think you're confused by what I'm saying or just assuming I want them to run some set level

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Unless I am totally mistaken, the notion of "hybrid zone" will totally disappear under the new rules. Assuming Toyota will use two hybrid systems designed to recover energy under braking, they should be able to do that at every braking zone.

Now, Vasselon's comments as reported above by deggis clearly suggest that Toyota may ultimately follow a less extreme route as regards the hybrid option.

I used the hybrid zones as an example to show what they could do going by the current format.

"...if you target 6 MJ and you manage only 5 MJ, you don’t get fuel advantage over the last 1 MJ of hybrid and you lose the fuel difference between 4 and 6. So at some point, you would be better to go for the 4MJ class.”

This is just a statement to answer a question. Its just a point that if you can't reach your goal of a set amount of energy then you will be at a disadvantage in terms of fuel flow. As each increment of hybrid power level gives you less fuel flow teams will be in trouble if they cannot recover the amount of energy in the class they're in.

[Mal]

Do they have to take the same option for every race? - surely the amount that can be recovered in the braking zones will vary dramatically with different circuits.

Equally it value in deployment will vary

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

This is just a statement to answer a question. Its just a point that if you can't reach your goal of a set amount of energy then you will be at a disadvantage in terms of fuel flow. As each increment of hybrid power level gives you less fuel flow teams will be in trouble if they cannot recover the amount of energy in the class they're in.

Time will tell which option Toyota will be opting for, but you may wonder why Vasselon is making such a statement if they were sure that they can reliably recover 8MJ per lap. A more conservative route (4MJ or 6MJ option) would probably be safer.

In any event, you may wonder if there is any advantage in opting for the 8MJ option considering that all options are supposed to be on equal footing as far as the total allocated energy per lap is concerned.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Mal

Do they have to take the same option for every race? - surely the amount that can be recovered in the braking zones will vary dramatically with different circuits.

Equally it value in deployment will vary

I believe the chosen hybrid option should be homologated for the entire season and that any modification of the homologation form is subject to the Endurance committee's approval.

Furthermore, the relevant energy/fuel figures of each hybird option are defined with the LM track as a reference. For other circuits, Appendix B provides:
"The amount of releasable energy per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by factor 1.55. The amount of fuel allocation per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by factor 1.11."

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Time will tell which option Toyota will be opting for, but you may wonder why Vasselon is making such a statement if they were sure that they can reliably recover 8MJ per lap. A more conservative route (4MJ or 6MJ option) would probably be safer.

In any event, you may wonder if there is any advantage in opting for the 8MJ option considering that all options are supposed to be on equal footing as far as the total allocated energy per lap is concerned.

It doesn't make any sense to have 2 hybrid drives on a car that can already do 6 MJ with a single drive. The only thing that would change is perhaps using the front to harvest more braking energy. But having two hybrid drives adds weight and unneeded complexity. And the quote is an answer to a question. I think the question was in an interview (possibly the radio lm one), theres no hinting at anything imo. Toyota won't have any issue harvesting and storing the max 8 MJ. The point you made is a good question if they're 'equal', but hybrid power seems to be easy to make for Toyota. So thats the question, but from the rumors of 1100hp at full song, you would need the 8 MJ option to reach that power. Thats the point I'm making. I guess we will see.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

It doesn't make any sense to have 2 hybrid drives on a car that can already do 6 MJ with a single drive. The only thing that would change is perhaps using the front to harvest more braking energy. But having two hybrid drives adds weight and unneeded complexity. And the quote is an answer to a question. I think the question was in an interview (possibly the radio lm one), theres no hinting at anything imo. Toyota won't have any issue harvesting and storing the max 8 MJ. The point you made is a good question if they're 'equal', but hybrid power seems to be easy to make for Toyota. So thats the question, but from the rumors of 1100hp at full song, you would need the 8 MJ option to reach that power. Thats the point I'm making. I guess we will see.

There is valid question to be asked as regards the 8MJ hybrid option IMHO. It's a fact that the 8MJ option comes with a more restricted fuel allocation. Everything is fine as long as you can reliably recover and use 8MJ of energy per lap. If, for whatever reason, you sit at the limit and harvest less that the 8MJ per lap, then you are at a disadvantage. Furthermore, one should question whether the 8MJ option is a reliable option for a 24-hour race like LM. Likewise, if this solution is not reliable over a whole 24-hour race duration, then you will have to live with a more restricted fuel allocation compared to the other hybrid options. Think of an extreme solution where the hybrid system fails partly or entirely.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Can you take the personal digs elsewhere? Lets review the reasoning;

I can't Being a Toyota fan is ok, but sometimes you just look at these things through so thick fan-glasses.

They already recover 3.5 MJ per lap now, and if you follow the thread at all you can take a look at comments from Toyota's head that they could store double that already. Thats 7 MJ.

Give me a single reason why should I trust someone's (this is not a personal dig, could be anyone's) calculations on a internet forum based on basically assumptions about the current situation instead of TMG's own calculations. There should be pretty good reason to think Vasselon wouldn't give that kind of comments before they're made any calculations.

I don't know where you get the bolded part of your post from. I think you're confused by what I'm saying or just assuming I want them to run some set level

It definitely sounds like you want them to go for 8MJ just because their Toyota. No? If they don't, are you going to question the decision? Since you just said you're sure they have no problem using 8MJ.

[MyNameIsNigel]

There are interesting speculations in the latest issue of Racecar Engineering about next year's Toyota. It is suggested that the new Toyota could use a 450kW (approx. 600HP) hybrid system. Assuming they opt for the 8MJ hybrid option, the new Toyota would produce a combined power of the order of 850kW (approx. 1140HP), more than double the power of the petrol engine, for a maximum duration of less than 18s per lap.

[deggis]

^ pages 44-50: http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issn=...096&o=ext&p=46


(only small excerpt, read the whole article)

That is what I was thinking when I read the Vasselon interview when he said their engineers believe NA V8 is the way forward... are they really thinking so or are they forced to think so?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by deggis

^ pages 44-50: http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issn=...096&o=ext&p=44


(only small excerpt, read the whole article)

That is what I was thinking when I read the Vasselon interview when he said their engineers believe NA V8 is the way forward... are they really thinking so or are they forced to think so?

Does it really matter wether they believe it or is forced to believe it?

Let's just hope that Toyota's engineers is innovative enough to develop the engine further (eventhought that block must be getting near it's end of development level)

[deggis]

Originally Posted by CTD

Does it really matter wether they believe it or is forced to believe it?

That would mean they don't select the best possible option. How can it NOT matter?

I can almost a imagine a cartoon caricature of the moment when someone from TMG goes to present their findings and asking money to build a new turbo engine... "No, you can't have it!"

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

I can't Being a Toyota fan is ok, but sometimes you just look at these things through so thick fan-glasses.

More personal digs. You should talk to others like you'd want to be talked to. I don't have glasses and my eyesight is 20/20 pal And stop labeling me as a "Toyota fan", when I follow much more than Toyota.

Originally Posted by deggis

Give me a single reason why should I trust someone's (this is not a personal dig, could be anyone's) calculations on a internet forum based on basically assumptions about the current situation instead of TMG's own calculations. There should be pretty good reason to think Vasselon wouldn't give that kind of comments before they're made any calculations.

These aren't my calculations, these are numbers taken from articles and publications linked to throughout this thread. I'm not just a fanboy, but don't take my word for it, take the information here.

Originally Posted by deggis

It definitely sounds like you want them to go for 8MJ just because their Toyota. No? If they don't, are you going to question the decision? Since you just said you're sure they have no problem using 8MJ.

You assume things. I don't care if they use hybrid or not. I'm finished this pointless conversation. I really don't care for your labeling and assuming. The facts are here in the thread. None of the words I type are things I've came up with. They're things said by the people at Toyota and the reporters who interview Toyota.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by deggis

That would mean they don't select the best possible option. How can it NOT matter?

Being "locked" in with a certain design will create the need to look places to gain, where you normally would just go to a new base engine!

Point being, we might see some new thinking from Toyotas side to compensate the locked design.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Hisatake Murata (Toyota Hybrid project chief) interview by Japanese Autosport magazine.

*About BoP between petrol and diesel.
-We claim that the thermal efficiency difference of petrol and diesel is 12%.
-So, we are asking "Let us use a hybrid system freely."
-We have improved the power-weight ratio of hybrid system.

*About 2013 LM24.
-Our target lap time was 3min 20sec.
-We were thinking the aero device as important. We had a critical aero device. We had checked the performance by the simulation and the test. However, finally we had dropped the parts by the lack of durability. We knew that the target time was impossible at the time.

*About rest of this season.
-We introduce a powerful engine instead of the sacrifice of reliability.
-We introduce the aero device of high-downforce spec.
-We have also improved hybrid system control.

*About 2014 season.
-We have begun durability test of the 2014 system from May.
-We have to exceed Audi 12% in L/D. This is a high hurdle for us.
-It is our targets to develop the hybrid system which covers 12% of efficiency difference between petrol and diesel, and to dedicate the system within the minimum weight.
-About Porshe, the rumour says that they will introduce DI turbo and hybrid. But we have confidence in the hybrid system. We think Porshe could introduce only the table of 4MJ. We are ahead of them.

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Japanese Autosport mag,
Toyota thinks that the Porsche's hybrid power cannot exceed 4MJ table.
(It means that Toyota's hybrid power in 2014 exceeds 4MJ table.)

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Some information about the 2014 Toyota LMP1 car: http://sportscar365.net/wec/toyota-r...2014-lmp1-car/

As mentioned earlier, Toyota is continuing with a NA v8.


They will run two hybrid systems, one on the front axle and one of the rear. They claim that they have not yet decided the size of the hybrid system.
I find that very hard to believe, since they always said that they could recover more with the current TS030 hybrid system than allowed by the rules. So I assumed that they would go for the 8MJ option.

According to the article the 2014 car is behind on schedule and the role out will only be done in the beginning of 2014. That is a bit disappointing

Those are a few quotes from others saying the same thing I just reiterated.

Originally Posted by CTD

Being "locked" in with a certain design will create the need to look places to gain, where you normally would just go to a new base engine!

Point being, we might see some new thinking from Toyotas side to compensate the locked design.

There are rumors the engine will be upwards of 5-6 liters so the rev limit will be much lower than it currently is. That saves fuel, produces more torque and less strain on the engine.

[Gingers4Justice]

So what will that sound like? I'm trying to imagine it.

[avvelenamento]

The 2014 engine will be an enlarged version of the current rv8k 3.4. In my opinion will be very unlikely to see an enlarged 6.0L! also because a so large engine in the rear + rear hybrid system would give an insane weight ratio to the car. Very likely will be 4.5L or however no more than 5.0L revving to 6000rpm. Actual engine revs over 9000rpm.