The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[avvelenamento]

Is hard to predict, next year there will be a radical regulamentation change, is not like 2011 where the change basicly was: lmp2 engines in lmp1, fin and wider front tires.
What could be predicted is that at least in the first year cars will generate less downforce by the only bodywork because of 190cm width and less mechanical grip because of new lmp2 size tires, so in tracks that require an HDF setting like silverstone I think that 2014 cars will be slower than now. On the other side of the coin, because of -30kg break, lower drag design and hybrid boost 2014 work lmp1 will have a shredder acceleration and an higher top speed, so in tracks le mans (or fuji) that don't require an HDF setting I think that will be able to run under 3.25 already in the first year.

[silente]

Although i didn't read the new rules carefully, my understanding is that yes, cars will be 10 cm narrower, but they can now have a 1800 mm wide rear wing and a full working front wing.

Don´t know the restrictions on their positions, though.

Did i understand right?

How big do you guys think the downforce reduction will be? i would say it is not simply

new DownForce = (new front section / old front section)* currrent downforce

since they should gain something back with the new wings regulations.

[MyNameIsNigel]

I would suggest reading the article entitled "Movements in LMP1 aero" in the latest issue of RCE. It assesses and sums up the impact of the new rules in terms of expected levels of downforce and aero efficiency. If one trusts the conclusion of the article, the cars may be able to achieve pretty similar and possibly slighty better aero in 2014 compared to 2013.

[silente]

hope October RCE will be delivered to my door before the start of next season then!



They are not so fast here in Germany unfortunately.

[avvelenamento]

Yeah, in 2014 regulamentations the front splitter basicly can be turned in a sort of F1 concept front wing. The 2014 specs will last longer than 3 years, so time after time and race by race, engineers will be able to develope bodyworks with a better aero efficency than 2011-2013 specs lmp1, that is sure. Don't know if this will be achieved already in 2014.
Anyway the mechanical grip lost with the tires downsizing can't be recovered so easily... rear tires will have to support all that torque coming from engine+hybrid boost. An other critical feature will be the weight ratio, 2 different electric engines + batteries or supercapacitors + thermal engine to place inside the chassis with a wished weight of under 870kg to have an optimal weight distribution.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by yamato

I'd also consider the additional braking capabilities of having ERS on the front and rear,.... combined with the mechanical brakes,... there should be some serious late braking,...

I doubt there will be significant change in terms of braking performance, unless they get similar improvement in tire grip. All that deceleration should still be transmitted through 4 small patches of that black magical stuff. Cars are to become somewhat lighter though, that should help.

[deggis]

With smaller tyres but possibly more power especially out of the corners, maybe there is little hope that the cars will look slightly more loose and more often "out of control"? Despite AWD, traction control and probably pretty advanced KERS electronics taming the boost, but there is always a trade-off... Now it is so rare to see especially top LMP1s to have any kind of visible slides or opposite lock moments.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Mal

Toyota have a big feature on the TS030 at The Frankfurt motorshow - so they are starting to use it for PR

https://vine.co/v/h1vZOJiLdFg

That cut-away model was already used last year in some autoshow, but nice anyway.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by silente

hope October RCE will be delivered to my door before the start of next season then!



They are not so fast here in Germany unfortunately.

http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issn=...096&o=ext&p=52

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by deggis

With smaller tyres but possibly more power especially out of the corners, maybe there is little hope that the cars will look slightly more loose and more often "out of control"? Despite AWD, traction control and probably pretty advanced KERS electronics taming the boost, but there is always a trade-off... Now it is so rare to see especially top LMP1s to have any kind of visible slides or opposite lock moments.

Before 2011, peugueot and audi drivers used to control between 1100-1200Nm of torque each time they went out corners. I know, tires were wider than 2014 spec, but with TCS and other stuff I don't expect to see toyota-porsche-audi drivers lose control and spin.
Hope that porsche won't hire pedro lamy or vanina ickx to oppugn my theory.

[deggis]

I did not mean spinning, but generally less stable car in the corner exists, resulting in more corrections. Because of AWD exact opposite might happen.

Spinning is boring, seeing a car getting out of the corner in an aggressive manner once in a while is exciting.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

800hp... 1100hp... i'm so lolling when I read that, do you really think that 2014 cars will be so powerfull?
a huge amount of hp (however lower than 800hp in my opinion) will be available for few seconds just after a slow turn in combined power in low speeds (2nd or 3rd) when the car basicly is a AWD, during that range of time we should more talk about of +1000Nm of combined torque than combined power if we consider that final power reached in 6th or 7th will be not so higher than 500-550hp. Don't forget that to save fuel the thermal engine could be set to rev idle when electric boost is released for a long time... so is very unlikely to see all that power you use to think

500hp-550hp with 7 forward gears and -50kg in weight. Not to mention slightly less drag with better efficiency. Then the added power on acceleration from a possible 2 hybrid powertrains. Regardless of how long the hybrid power lasts, that power is there even if part time. Imo the cars will be just as fast as they are now, perhaps faster if you take a closer look at whats on offer.

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by TF110

500hp-550hp with 7 forward gears and -50kg in weight. Not to mention slightly less drag with better efficiency. Then the added power on acceleration from a possible 2 hybrid powertrains. Regardless of how long the hybrid power lasts, that power is there even if part time. Imo the cars will be just as fast as they are now, perhaps faster if you take a closer look at whats on offer.

Good morning, as usual you focus just on what you want to see. If you read post #6526, you will see that because of hybrid and low drag design, very likely in tracks like le mans and fuji, that don't require a HDF setting, 2014 work lmp1 will run in 2013 competitive timelaps. But in tracks like silverstone where cars usually use HDF settiing, in my opinion at least for 2014, work lmp1 will be slower because of less downforce and less mechanical grip. Just a my prediction, if you have a crystall ball that let you see the future, well I surrender.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Good morning, as usual you focus just on what you want to see. If you read post #6526, you will see that because of hybrid and low drag design, very likely in tracks like le mans and fuji, that don't require a HDF setting, 2014 work lmp1 will run in 2013 competitive timelaps. But in tracks like silverstone where cars usually use HDF settiing, in my opinion at least for 2014, work lmp1 will be slower because of less downforce and less mechanical grip. Just a my prediction, if you have a crystall ball that let you see the future, well I surrender.

I don't understand you or phrases like "focus on what you want to see". The cars will have a front wing which increases downforce, and a wider rear wing which also increases downforce. They will be 50kg lighter which helps handling, and increased power from the hybrid which helps acceleration. Those are facts. Not "just what i want to see".

[ThatGuy]

The rear wing will be the same width as it is now, cars are just narrower.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't understand you or phrases like "focus on what you want to see". The cars will have a front wing which increases downforce, and a wider rear wing which also increases downforce. They will be 50kg lighter which helps handling, and increased power from the hybrid which helps acceleration. Those are facts. Not "just what i want to see".

The tyres will also be narrower (LMP2 size), consequently reducing mechanical grip.

The higher hybrid power will only be available for a short period. Assuming a hybrid system of 450 kW, the system will only be active for 18 sec during a lap of 3m30 = 210 sec. For the rest of the lap, the car will be driven by a less powerfull internal combustion engine.

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't understand you or phrases like "focus on what you want to see". The cars will have a front wing which increases downforce, and a wider rear wing which also increases downforce. They will be 50kg lighter which helps handling, and increased power from the hybrid which helps acceleration. Those are facts. Not "just what i want to see".

You just see 45kg (not 50kg) less and the extra torque given by the hybrid boost. I see engineers that have to find a way to maximize the downforce from a 10cm narrower car and to study some way to develope new extra downforce from new regulamentar parts like front wing. Surely after a year of races, in 2015 engineers could be able to develope a comparable 2013 downforce level. Don't forget also narrower tires, that as I said will reduce a lot the mechanical grip. As you can see, reality is more complex than what you call "facts". This is the reason why I think that in 2014 WEC in HDF tracks, 2014 cars will be slower, in LDF tracks times will be comparable to 2013.

Anyway, audi and toyota because of double plates basicly have a rear wing 200cm wide. Next year will be less wide.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

The rear wing will be the same width as it is now, cars are just narrower.

Count again: now 1600mm, 2014 will be 1800mm with 1900mm car width.

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by deggis

Count again: now 1600mm, 2014 will be 1800mm with 1900mm car width.

Depends on how you view the wheel arches, but fair enough.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The tyres will also be narrower (LMP2 size), consequently reducing mechanical grip.

The higher hybrid power will only be available for a short period. Assuming a hybrid system of 450 kW, the system will only be active for 18 sec during a lap of 3m30 = 210 sec. For the rest of the lap, the car will be driven by a less powerfull internal combustion engine.

Pushing less weight and a slightly narrower car. LMP2's are not far off 3:30 now at LeMans. As for tge higher downforce tracks, if its still up to only 6MJ per lap, theres a lot more hybrid power. Plus an adjustable front wing, wider rear wing less weight... that will make up for the less narrow tire. 5-10 years ago there were no wide front tires. Cars like the Speed 8 had narrow front tires.

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

You just see 45kg (not 50kg) less and the extra torque given by the hybrid boost. I see engineers that have to find a way to maximize the downforce from a 10cm narrower car and to study some way to develope new extra downforce from new regulamentar parts like front wing. Surely after a year of races, in 2015 engineers could be able to develope a comparable 2013 downforce level. Don't forget also narrower tires, that as I said will reduce a lot the mechanical grip. As you can see, reality is more complex than what you call "facts". This is the reason why I think that in 2014 WEC in HDF tracks, 2014 cars will be slower, in LDF tracks times will be comparable to 2013.

Anyway, audi and toyota because of double plates basicly have a rear wing 200cm wide. Next year will be less wide.

Stop with the "just see" Yes the double plates are close. But its not a full width wing. If SuperGT cars are 2-3 seconds faster than lmp2 with ~500hp and 1100kg I have no doubt the new lmp1's can be even faster than now with 870kg more hybrid power and more 'wing'.

[avvelenamento]

Excuse me, who was comparing lmp2? First of all, lmp2 cars were close to 3.30 only before the 2011 lmp2 regulamentatin, when an lmp2 car was lighter than 900kg and was powered by full born race engines that currently are used in lmp1. In 2011 lmp2 pole was 3.41, this year was close to 3.38. Like work lmp1, lmp2 improved of 3 seconds at le mans in 3 years, but I guess is a bit far from 3.30, don't you agree?
Is useless to compare lmp2, super GT or LMGTP because work 2014 lmp1 will be however able to run under 3.30 at le mans already in 2014 (my bet is 3.25). There will be an higher top speed at mulsanne and a huge better acceleration in slow point like mulsanne corner and arnage, to compensate, the price to pay will be a slower ride on porsche sector.

[Maelochs]

2014 p1s might well be marginally slower than 2013's, simply because they will be brand new cars on narrower tires with engines tuned for fuel efficiency.

If there is a difference, it will likely be slight, as the differences are slight and in some ways balance out (less downforce but also less drag, less mechanical grip but front wings and wider rear wings, narrower tires for less grip but less drag ...)

Either way, by 2015 I;'d bet they will be right back at pre-2014 speeds. Engineers Always seem to figure out ways to go faster while the rules always find ways to slow the cars, and we end up with about the same speeds every time.

I am particularly interested to see what the various teams do with economy/hybrid balance. I wonder if for some races it will be possible to eliminate a stop or two by running extra-efficiently, or to push the economy limit and make up for the extra stop with quicker laps.

I imagine the teams will be learning on the fly, and fine-tuning both engines (brand new) and hybrid systems (either all-new or mush bigger) with tire and drivetrain loads, and economy, and discovering a lot of stuff they can do.

I can deal with cars being a second or two slower per lap for a year if there are a lot more strategy options.

[avvelenamento]

The less drag matter in my opinion is smoke in the eyes. Will be extremely important only at le mans, where manufacturers already use low drag car. In all tracks but le mans audi uses an HDF setting, that basicly means also high drag package!
In a not le mans like track I think that is more important how fast you can run a turn than to have 3 or 4 km/h more on top speed. Basicly the lower drag will be close to useless before and after le mans.

[Maelochs]

That's a good point, and with the narrower tires, downforce might need to be increased even more. Interesting to see how it goes.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Excuse me, who was comparing lmp2? First of all, lmp2 cars were close to 3.30 only before the 2011 lmp2 regulamentatin, when an lmp2 car was lighter than 900kg and was powered by full born race engines that currently are used in lmp1. In 2011 lmp2 pole was 3.41, this year was close to 3.38. Like work lmp1, lmp2 improved of 3 seconds at le mans in 3 years, but I guess is a bit far from 3.30, don't you agree?
Is useless to compare lmp2, super GT or LMGTP because work 2014 lmp1 will be however able to run under 3.30 at le mans already in 2014 (my bet is 3.25). There will be an higher top speed at mulsanne and a huge better acceleration in slow point like mulsanne corner and arnage, to compensate, the price to pay will be a slower ride on porsche sector.

Its called being relative. Nobody inferred you were speaking of lmp2. I brought it up because the pace of those cars with less than 500hp is hovering close to 3:30 per lap at LeMans now! If you do not understand something, just ask. 3:38 is close to 3:30. They have no hybrid power, 'skinny' tires, small rear wings, are down about 40-50hp and weigh 900kg. Next year lmp1 wont be as slow as some think. The 'less drag' will be helpful at LeMans. The front wing will be helpful at other shorter tracks. The low weight will be beneficial for both as will the hybrid power.