[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Gingers4Justice]

LMP900/675 was arguably a privateers' formula, and that ended up with:
Audi
Bentley
MG
Cadillac
BMW(ish)

The trouble is, the formation of the WEC doesn't give the ACO the breathing space of catering for the privateers and letting OEMs grow organically in the fertile soil of a low-cost formula.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

LMP900/675 was arguably a privateers' formula, and that ended up with:
Audi
Bentley
MG
Cadillac
BMW(ish)

The trouble is, the formation of the WEC doesn't give the ACO the breathing space of catering for the privateers and letting OEMs grow organically in the fertile soil of a low-cost formula.

I think the best it has been in the last 15 years was the LMP1/LMP2 class in the ALMS in 2007-08 which gave us 2 Audi’s, 4 Porsche’s, 4 Acura’s, and a Mazda split between 8 different teams. I’m not really sure how that turned out to be so good without BoP.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I think the best it has been in the last 15 years was the LMP1/LMP2 class in the ALMS which gave us 2 Audi’s, 4 Porsche’s, 4 Acura’s, and a Mazda split between 8 different teams. I’m not really sure how that turned out to be so good without BoP.

I guess that was Balance of Classes rather than Balance of Performance.

Point still stands. Aside from Audi pushing for diesel, there was something organic about the way the manufacturers came into prototype racing in the 2000s. It feels more contrived now - or maybe I’m just old enough now to be aware of it.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I guess that was Balance of Classes rather than Balance of Performance.

Point still stands. Aside from Audi pushing for diesel, there was something organic about the way the manufacturers came into prototype racing in the 2000s. It feels more contrived now - or maybe I’m just old enough now to be aware of it.

Everything is way too spec now and looks the same. Nothing really has personality anymore and the cars have become way too reliable.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Everything is way too spec now and looks the same. Nothing really has personality anymore and the cars have become way too reliable.

Agreed, I wish prototypes were a bit more fragile than they are. You get some of it with LMP1 non hybrid still. But we see the likes of the Toyota LMP1 and Cadillac DPI which are bullet proof. LMP2 is that way too. Great display of technology yes, but it takes some of the mystery of the endurance race away.

[S griffin]

Well you can’t blame the designers for building them that way. Motorsport is about survival of the fittest. That’s why Toyota are so far in front. You can’t put the clock back

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Everything is way too spec now and looks the same.

Except LMP1 but apparently there's no more interest in that.

[Deleted]

If they go with this upgraded GTE Plus / GT1 lobby idea of theirs (which is awful but I guess at least 1% less terrible than the mishmash concept proposed at Sebring), then the independent privateer constructor/competitor side has finally been completely killed off from all f ACO racing, with the cartel formulae in LMP2 and LMP3.

Anyway, GG did say that he expects "at least two years" of transition period for the nonhybrids after the conclusion of 19-20 season. Not that it's gonna be particularly great if/when the cars are restricted to sub LMP2 power levels

I hope the "plan B" mentioned at Sebring is still just have what there is now.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Except LMP1 but apparently there's no more interest in that.

I mean in P1 the Toyota and the Rebellion look really similar to most of the P2 class. Not to mention the general designs is all the same too (mid-engined prototype with a fin and pontoon front fenders). By comparison, the RS Spyder, Acura-Courage, Mazda-Lola, Audi R10, Peugeot, and the Zytek had a lot of variation in what they were.

[carbsmith]

Well aside from the open top option, all of those are mid-engine prototypes with pontoon fenders as well. I can't say you can look at a Ligier, ORECA, Toyota, and BR1 and see less variation other than the fin blocking out most of the back of the car. That's to say nothing of when the R18 was still around.

The 908 legitimately looked almost exactly like an R10 with a roof.

[ApexTurtle]

Yeah I agree with carbsmith. Plus the fact that something like the ill-fated Nissan LMP1 was possible under the exact same rules speaks volumes about the openness of those regulations.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I hope the "plan B" mentioned at Sebring is still just have what there is now.

This is surely the only option for Plan B. It could even have a bigger grid if someone runs those Ginetta.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Yeah I agree with carbsmith. Plus the fact that something like the ill-fated Nissan LMP1 was possible under the exact same rules speaks volumes about the openness of those regulations.

I am not sure that package/car layout would have ever been competitive if Nissan had carried on with it in the same way the Panoz LMP was.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Well aside from the open top option, all of those are mid-engine prototypes with pontoon fenders as well. I can't say you can look at a Ligier, ORECA, Toyota, and BR1 and see less variation other than the fin blocking out most of the back of the car. That's to say nothing of when the R18 was still around.

The 908 legitimately looked almost exactly like an R10 with a roof.

Fair, I guess the 15-20 Oreca’s and the spec P2 engine massively dilute the LMP grid variety in my brain.

[TF110]

That's like saying all the f1 cars look the same imo.

[truebeliever]

[QUOTE=Anyopenroad;

The ACO's problem stems from an absolute commitment to have manufacturer, factory-run teams at the sharp end of the Le Mans grid, in the face of all the evidence that major manufacturers have no such interest. This results in them bending over backwards to please a small number of factories who already have supercars they might consider (but are hardly showing enthusiasm for) racing.
.[/QUOTE]

You overlooked the obvious, the ACO's love of pockets full of OEM money, which encouraging privateers won't do.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by TF110

That's like saying all the f1 cars look the same imo.

They do.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is surely the only option for Plan B. It could even have a bigger grid if someone runs those Ginetta.

Nah it'd be too good and logical to be true

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

They do.

This is the correct answer - along with more or less every open wheel series in the world and NASCAR. I like sports car racing a lot due to variety. Right now, 24 of the 28 LMP’s on this year’s LM24 grid are powered by a Gibson V8 and half of the entries are built by Oreca.

[ApexTurtle]

Which is still more varied than any other type of racing in the world, by the way

And even then, the LMP1 cars look very different from each other.

[carbsmith]

Le Mans can be a privateer race, but WEC can't be a privateer championship.

[Napolis]

We will have more information on our 2020/2021 LMP1 007 as soon as rules are finalised and plan to also offer 25 road legal 007LMP1's. They will have 650 RWHP from our ICE and 150 FWHP from our KERS system. It now looks like we will be offering our Glickenhaus 004C as a GT2 and as a GT3/SPX. It will be fully GT2/SPX eligible in 2020 and GT3 when we reach 300 004's around 2021. A GT2 to GT3/SPX kit will be available. We will offer full support, spares, etc. We have one Slot available to race alongside our factory GT3/SPX in 2020 at The Ring and hope to show up with one factory and three customer entries. Our GT4 will be a race version of our 006. We are very excited about GT2 as it will be an amature class and will have races all around the world for 50 race weekends a year. Our 004GT2 will also make a great track day car. Exciting times.
(Photos Glickenhaus 007LMP1/Glickenhaus 006GT4/Glickenhaus GT2/GT3-SPX)

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Le Mans can be a privateer race, but WEC can't be a privateer championship.

It can be a privateer driven, but a FIA World Championship should not have a pro/am spine propping it up

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Napolis

We will have more information on our 2020/2021 LMP1 007 as soon as rules are finalised and plan to also offer 25 road legal 007LMP1's. They will have 650 RWHP from our ICE and 150 FWHP from our KERS system. It now looks like we will be offering our Glickenhaus 004C as a GT2 and as a GT3/SPX. It will be fully GT2/SPX eligible in 2020 and GT3 when we reach 300 004's around 2021. A GT2 to GT3/SPX kit will be available. We will offer full support, spares, etc. We have one Slot available to race alongside our factory GT3/SPX in 2020 at The Ring and hope to show up with one factory and three customer entries. Our GT4 will be a race version of our 006. We are very excited about GT2 as it will be an amature class and will have races all around the world for 50 race weekends a year. Our 004GT2 will also make a great track day car. Exciting times.
(Photos Glickenhaus 007LMP1/Glickenhaus 006GT4/Glickenhaus GT2/GT3-SPX)

Thanks for sharing those images. Look forward to learning more about the LMP1 and the GT's. Am I understanding you correctly that there isn't a minimum build number for GT2, but you need 300 examples for GT3?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Napolis

We will have more information on our 2020/2021 LMP1 007 as soon as rules are finalised and plan to also offer 25 road legal 007LMP1's. They will have 650 RWHP from our ICE and 150 FWHP from our KERS system. It now looks like we will be offering our Glickenhaus 004C as a GT2 and as a GT3/SPX. It will be fully GT2/SPX eligible in 2020 and GT3 when we reach 300 004's around 2021. A GT2 to GT3/SPX kit will be available. We will offer full support, spares, etc. We have one Slot available to race alongside our factory GT3/SPX in 2020 at The Ring and hope to show up with one factory and three customer entries. Our GT4 will be a race version of our 006. We are very excited about GT2 as it will be an amature class and will have races all around the world for 50 race weekends a year. Our 004GT2 will also make a great track day car. Exciting times.
(Photos Glickenhaus 007LMP1/Glickenhaus 006GT4/Glickenhaus GT2/GT3-SPX)

Love the GT2 car offering, sadly I'll probably never see the cars in the flesh.

Sadly my Glickenhaus racing shirt didn't ship until last night so I won't be able to show off the colors this weekend trackside for The Mitty. But it will be there for Petit, and possibly a flag if you make one by then.