The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What this discussion needs is facts---not calculations, estimates, imaginations, etc. You guys have beaten the horse until it is crippled and bleeding, but so far nothing definitive has been introduced, which means you have the opportunity to beat the horse until it is horse jelly, and even then, nothing will be solved.

Sometimes it is okay to just let it go---agree to disagree, accept that opinions can differ, all that.

I think we have enough horse jelly to last us for a while.

There are (some) facts listed here already. The restrictor sizes are available from the fia's website. Using math you can determine the volume or area of a circle with the diameter.

As for the "490hp" for GTE is from this website- http://www.corvetteracing.com/2012-specifications.shtml. If you want quoted power figures from lmp2 engines, you can download this pdf from Oak racing- http://www.oak-racing.com/wp-content...ak-v6_WEB1.pdf. Page 15 gives you the weights and power outputs of the Judd, Nissan and HPD engines. This is from 2013 btw, so no comparing to SuperGT. Or you can take Nissan's website quoted 450hp+ figure with the 40mm restrictor.

This should hopefully end the lmp2 power level argument. Maybe Austin will give us more to talk about with regards to Toyota. I hear MWM will have another interview with them this weekend.

[Victor_RO]

Tweet from the team confirms that car #7 will return at Fuji. So now we have something to talk about.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

As for the "490hp" for GTE is from this website- http://www.corvetteracing.com/2012-specifications.shtml. If you want quoted power figures from lmp2 engines, you can download this pdf from Oak racing- http://www.oak-racing.com/wp-content...ak-v6_WEB1.pdf. Page 15 gives you the weights and power outputs of the Judd, Nissan and HPD engines. This is from 2013 btw, so no comparing to SuperGT. Or you can take Nissan's website quoted 450hp+ figure with the 40mm restrictor.

This should hopefully end the lmp2 power level argument.

The power of the LMP2 engines has been discussed extensively in 2011, when the new LMP2 rules were introduced. At the beginning of that season the HPD V6 turbo engine is completely underpowered compared to the Nissan V8.

There were some very strong indications that the Nissan is/was produced a lot more than the official 450 hp: close to and maybe more than 500 hp!

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2857472
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2863736
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2863811
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2866061

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Tweet from the team confirms that car #7 will return at Fuji. So now we have something to talk about.

Yes, this is confirmed on http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109902

A spokesman for Toyota Motorsport GmbH said: "It is our home race and a circuit that Toyota owns, and it is right next to our R&D facility where the hybrid systems and the engine for the TS030 are developed.

"As a Japanese company it is important that we put on a good show for our Japanese fans and get a good result, which could be important for the future of the programme.

The article also mentions that the monocoque was damaged in Brazil and hence that the car is rebuilt around the spare tub before its shipment to the US.

[Lorenzo S]

I found the last part of that Toyota quote to be most interesting in that it implies all sorts of negative things if the team doesn't perform well at Suzuka.

I find Toyotas "toe in the water" manner of sportscar racing really irritating. Either do it properly or sod off. Either way I predict annihilation at the hands of Audi this year and Porsche next.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo S

I found the last part of that Toyota quote to be most interesting in that it implies all sorts of negative things if the team doesn't perform well at Suzuka.

I find Toyotas "toe in the water" manner of sportscar racing really irritating. Either do it properly or sod off. Either way I predict annihilation at the hands of Audi this year and Porsche next.

Same here. What exactly is the problem? What is stopping them from taking it a bit more seriously, and spending a bit more money on the programme?

Are they still frightened about spending money on motor racing given the complete and utter failure their F1 team turned out to be, or something?

Thanks to them I'm just wishing this year would be over for the FIA WEC already, so we could see some proper competition for Audi.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Same here. What exactly is the problem? What is stopping them from taking it a bit more seriously, and spending a bit more money on the programme?

Are they still frightened about spending money on motor racing given the complete and utter failure their F1 team turned out to be, or something?

Answered your own question there. Toyota has had a terrible experience with a big budget operation in F1, now they're cautious.

Obviously they're spending too little now, they haven't found a balance yet but there is a good chance they will get there and a good showing at Fuji will help.

You can't blame them, at least they have made a long-term commitment to LMP1 racing and are actually there, helping keep the championship afloat.

That's more than can be said about most other manufacturers, especially certain Japanese ones.

[Dario911]

I don't know if someone has already reported the news, but anyway... Toyota has confirmed a second LMP1 for next race in Austin.

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-20687.html

[Lorenzo S]

Originally Posted by Dario911

I don't know if someone has already reported the news, but anyway... Toyota has confirmed a second LMP1 for next race in Austin.

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-20687.html

Sorry, that only confirms the second car for Fuji, not Austin.

[JAG_]

For some unknown reason, people have chosen to ignore what Toyota have said from day one. The undertook a multi-year test program to evaluate hybrid technology, and work with the ACO to put this tech in the regs.

The intended to only test during '12, a limited race program in '13, and a major effort from '14 onwards with a new regs car.

The sports circumstances changed, and they stepped into the breach in '12 after Peugeot's withdrawal, then made two season long entries in the '13 WEC at the behest of the ACO (with the understanding one car would be run after Le Mans). Resources for the latter half of '13 have been diverted to the '14 car, which was always intended to be the programs first full attack on the WEC and Le Mans, and best suited to their hybrid tech.

In addition, TMG have made available a class leading P1 engine to customers, they even offered Rebellion the TS030 engine for this season, but the team decided to stick with the tried and trusted motor. For '14 TMG will once again be offering a P1 engine, it's yet to be seen whether this is shared with the 'TS040'.

On the other hand, Porsche announced their program two years back, but understandably, decided to hold back their program until '14. Meanwhile, Nissan have embarked on a program that can be described as 90% PR, 10% on track competition (not including their welcome engine support in P2). Hopefully the ZEOD program is the start of a return to P1, or at least a regular WEC presence with the aforementioned car (in an invitation class).

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Yes, this is confirmed on http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109902

WTF ?

[JAG_]

Originally Posted by TF110

There are (some) facts listed here already. The restrictor sizes are available from the fia's website. Using math you can determine the volume or area of a circle with the diameter.........

I don't think there's much doubt P2's produce over 500bhp, while GTE's are closer to 550bhp, with a bunch of torque to push them out of the corners.

No one will ever give you the real power outputs, anyhow, that's only part of the story.

At the Le Mans Test Day, a Michelin engineer told RLM, by their calculations, the '14 P1's would be as quick as current cars. That's as close as you'll get to a definitive answer before the cars hit the tracks. Year to year developments can gain seconds on track, particularly a circuit the size of Le Mans, for a layman to pin down all the variables of the '14 regs, and give a definitive statement on the cars' pace, is next to impossible.

There's little reason to think P1 regs will change in any great fashion for the next 5, even 10 years. The ACO/FIA saw little reason to change chassis regs substantially, while engines are effectively free.

With stability, manufacturer's and teams can make longer-term investments, and fine tune their chassis/engines. On the ACO/FIA's part, reducing energy allocation/fuel flow is an easy change, with the twin benefit of controlling the cars pace, while meeting their ultimate goal of reducing a cars energy consumption.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo S

I found the last part of that Toyota quote to be most interesting in that it implies all sorts of negative things if the team doesn't perform well at Suzuka.

I find Toyotas "toe in the water" manner of sportscar racing really irritating. Either do it properly or sod off.

Pretty extreme. Either come in and compete at the highest possible level or don't bother? It's an approach which would ensure some pretty small grids, surely......?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by JAG_

For some unknown reason, people have chosen to ignore what Toyota have said from day one. The undertook a multi-year test program to evaluate hybrid technology, and work with the ACO to put this tech in the regs.

The intended to only test during '12, a limited race program in '13, and a major effort from '14 onwards with a new regs car.

The sports circumstances changed, and they stepped into the breach in '12 after Peugeot's withdrawal, then made two season long entries in the '13 WEC at the behest of the ACO (with the understanding one car would be run after Le Mans). Resources for the latter half of '13 have been diverted to the '14 car, which was always intended to be the programs first full attack on the WEC and Le Mans, and best suited to their hybrid tech.

In addition, TMG have made available a class leading P1 engine to customers, they even offered Rebellion the TS030 engine for this season, but the team decided to stick with the tried and trusted motor. For '14 TMG will once again be offering a P1 engine, it's yet to be seen whether this is shared with the 'TS040'.

On the other hand, Porsche announced their program two years back, but understandably, decided to hold back their program until '14. Meanwhile, Nissan have embarked on a program that can be described as 90% PR, 10% on track competition (not including their welcome engine support in P2). Hopefully the ZEOD program is the start of a return to P1, or at least a regular WEC presence with the aforementioned car (in an invitation class).

I have been saying this for a while - Toyota have done exactly what they originally said and a little more. Not less.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The power of the LMP2 engines has been discussed extensively in 2011, when the new LMP2 rules were introduced. At the beginning of that season the HPD V6 turbo engine is completely underpowered compared to the Nissan V8.

There were some very strong indications that the Nissan is/was produced a lot more than the official 450 hp: close to and maybe more than 500 hp!

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2857472
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2863736
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2863811
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2866061

People asked for facts. Those are quoted power levels from Nissan and Oak. Itd be interesting to hear power at the wheels vs power at the crank. I don't see much more power than what they claim to make.

Originally Posted by Mal

I have been saying this for a while - Toyota have done exactly what they originally said and a little more. Not less.

I agree. The "future of the program" can be read in two ways. Negatively, as in its in jeopardy. Or you can read into it positively, that the interest it gathers will show Toyota they are supported by fans and should have more support in funds.

I'd like to think positive. They could have just left it at one car like last year. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. They already confirmed their 2014 entry so I think the only question is the amount of cars and how many years?

[TF110]

Toyota's PR for Austin is out. The interesting thing is of the lmp1 teams, only Stephane Sarrazin has any on track running at COTA.

[gwyllion]

The other manufacturer drivers only know the track from similators.

“Austin is a very technical track that includes some sections based on famous corners, like the Maggots/Becketts combination at Silverstone, Hockenheim’s stadium entry and the quadruple left ‘Turn 8’ at Istanbul Park. It also has its own signature corner, the tight Turn 1 located at the top of a steep slope after the start/finish straight. I know exactly what to expect after preparing with my simulator partners ellip6, who are based in France, just as I always do when tackling a new circuit. For their part, the team has already accumulated track data and undertaken theoretical simulations. When the car heads out for the first time it will have the correct gear ratios installed and 90% of the final set-up configured. It will be up to myself, André and Marcel to refine it,” says Benoît, who will be heading to the US a little earlier than normal.

source: http://www.benoittreluyer.com/bt/en/gold-rush/

There is two additional test sessions on Thursday. So the drivers will have more time to get familiar with the track.

[Lorenzo S]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Pretty extreme. Either come in and compete at the highest possible level or don't bother? It's an approach which would ensure some pretty small grids, surely......?

Extreme? Not really. I might have exaggerated a smidgeon but if Toyota really were interested in making a proper fist of competing this year (and last year) then they could at least have run both cars. I couldn't believe how long they took to build up a second chassis last year, the campaign has the appearance of an after hours volunteer project by a bunch of enthusiasts, instead of a full on campaign by the world's largest motor manufacturer.

I don't buy the story that they are only competing "to help out the ACO". If their target really was 2014, to coincide with the new regs, then I find it hard to believe that a conservative organisation such as Toyota would sign off on building a couple of chassis for a campaign lasting only two years. They must have been planning to "go for it" this year and yet again they have cut back to only one chassis. Well, we all saw how that strategy can bite you after only 30 mins when there is no back up car.

I believe Toyota has merely been naïve. It achieved some remarkable, unexpected, results last year and thought it could turn up this year with a lightly tweaked revision of last years car. That has been shown up, so they have cut their losses and run off, leaving Wurz and co. on the sidelines.

[deggis]

Also interesting in that article:

Toyota filed a pair of full-season entries for the WEC at the behest of the series organizer, although it only intended to enter two TS030s at Silverstone, Spa, the Le Mans 24 Hours and, most likely, Fuji.

I wonder at what point that intention came. If you remember the "one car plan suddenly became two cars" shuffle from before the season started.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

WTF ?

Yeah But I think we might read too much in to that. For sure it can not be "not important."

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG_

For some unknown reason, people have chosen to ignore what Toyota have said from day one. The undertook a multi-year test program to evaluate hybrid technology, and work with the ACO to put this tech in the regs.

The KERS regs haven't changed much at all since October 2011 (which is when they made their announcement). At that point the bulk of the regs were already in the 2011 rules.

And if you refer to 2014, racing for two season just to influence regs more? Makes sense for a manufacturer that clearly is afraid to spend money...

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The other manufacturer drivers only know the track from similators.
source: http://www.benoittreluyer.com/bt/en/gold-rush/

There is two additional test sessions on Thursday. So the drivers will have more time to get familiar with the track.

Btw, that ellip6 simulator looks something like made mainly for rent/entertaining use. I guess better than nothing.

http://www.ellip6.com/?page_id=275
http://www.youtube.com/user/ELLIP6/videos

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo S

Extreme? Not really. I might have exaggerated a smidgeon but if Toyota really were interested in making a proper fist of competing this year (and last year) then they could at least have run both cars. I couldn't believe how long they took to build up a second chassis last year, the campaign has the appearance of an after hours volunteer project by a bunch of enthusiasts, instead of a full on campaign by the world's largest motor manufacturer.

I don't buy the story that they are only competing "to help out the ACO". If their target really was 2014, to coincide with the new regs, then I find it hard to believe that a conservative organisation such as Toyota would sign off on building a couple of chassis for a campaign lasting only two years. They must have been planning to "go for it" this year and yet again they have cut back to only one chassis. Well, we all saw how that strategy can bite you after only 30 mins when there is no back up car.

I believe Toyota has merely been naïve. It achieved some remarkable, unexpected, results last year and thought it could turn up this year with a lightly tweaked revision of last years car. That has been shown up, so they have cut their losses and run off, leaving Wurz and co. on the sidelines.

The car is around a second faster than last year and goes further on fuel I think they did a pretty good job

What point is there running two cars all year if LeMans was/is your goal, on top of their decision to run one car originally? So saving money and building a better more focused 2014 car is pretty logical imo. They don't have a huge budget to run on, so what is the best move? Pretty easy decision.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

The car is over a sevond faster than last year and goes further on fuel I think they did a pretty good job

If the competitor is two seconds faster, does that matter? Rhetorical question.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

If the competitor is two seconds faster, does that matter? Rhetorical question.

If they can only go ~90% of the comparative distance on fuel.