[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[Sodemo]

I'm all for BOP when its based on car dynamics and calculations of potential performance or past performance. What I am not in favour of is giving a "leg up" to other team(s) just because another team has been dominant in the rounds beforehand. I was actually supportive of a platform change, to give LMDh a slight boost, but that would have then penalised Peugeot and we couldn't have that...

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Matador

Then again, it might just end up being closed cockpit F1.Maybe mandate that they are street legal and have a minimum 100 car production run?

F1 closed cockpit, just paint it red with yellow stripe? As to the production number, I seem to remember it was 20. Anyone to confirm? They were supposed to be modified road cars and present in the catalogue's maker.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And we're in an age where a person's or organization's word isn't worth the breath used to utter it and contracts and even rule books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. But you also have to remember that old phrase "the Lord givth, the Lord taketh away". And with an organization like the ACO or the FIA, read the fine print and note that rules and other things are subject to change at basically any time.

Fair enough. Slightly OT but not that much, it's hard to imagine what heavy hands mean in this racing world. Want an example? OK. I guess Adam has a special allowance to use all the data displayed by the official spanish time keeper. Each time you're connected, the fist things you read are two warnings "disclaimer" sayin that you're not allowed to use what you see, "thid parties", blah, blah… I'm very familiar with this, its the same company we have in historics and we call them RC bis… Free world? No angels in sight kolonel!
So, Toy', Pug' and friends as you said are pretty much aware they're playin hide and seek and are permanently on the tight rope.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by kvenom

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...-run/10485881/

This article is a good read, however a few things come to mind and while I do agree with Jaime in his over arching assessment that a win in '24 might be even more meaningful in the grand scheme; I think that beyond just wanting to prove themselves with major competition, I believe Toyota wanted that Centenary trophy in their cabinet. They put in the work to earn it too, but well... yeah. Secondly, who is to say that they will win it next year? I certainly hope they do, but Le Mans is never a guarantee, far from it. What if Porsche sort out their issues over the winter and sandbag through the first three races of the season for an advantageous BoP at Le Mans? Ferrari wouldn't be standing still, their car is going to get faster and more reliable. As will Cadillac. The category is sand boxed and BoP'd, it's really not LMP1 days. Tens of things could happen.



I think that we may also get robbed of seeing a "GR020" (hope I'm wrong on this) because in essence, the GR010 is a compromised car that was evolved into being a beast. I'm sure the engineers wold love to do another homologation, but what would be the point really if the GR010 can be consistent and BoP will solve any future pace deficiency?


On that note.... any word on what the BoP is going to be going forward the rest of the season? Can't wait to see how the optics on that one is gonna be.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

F1 closed cockpit, just paint it red with yellow stripe? As to the production number, I seem to remember it was 20. Anyone to confirm? They were supposed to be modified road cars and present in the catalogue's maker.

Nah, it'd be slow and break too much


As to the production numbers I believe that only applied to production based hypercars. Are those still eligible?

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I'm all for BOP when its based on car dynamics and calculations of potential performance or past performance. What I am not in favour of is giving a "leg up" to other team(s) just because another team has been dominant in the rounds beforehand. I was actually supportive of a platform change, to give LMDh a slight boost, but that would have then penalised Peugeot and we couldn't have that...

100x this.

[chernaudi]

Well, the rules were made to discourage rampant development in most areas (cars have to fit a certain downforce to drag/lift to drag ratio, only one main body kit with only a few things that can be adjusted, quasi-spec tires, etc, including performance balancing/BOP). Also, a basic car's homolgation is good for up to 5 seasons, and you're only allowed so many jokers and only one overall new car design (new tub/engine) during those 5 years.


Granted, we can visually see that Toyota have used several jokers probably from 2021 to present, and newer teams do initially get more leeway with inseason testing and jokers.



However, BOP doesn't (and shouldn't) fix everything, and IMO it should still be up to the teams to perform.

[JT240Z]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Still wainting for a real Supermegahypercar category, restritions setted up at the minimum, engineers show your best, drivers flat out and que le meilleur gagne. This would be sport, not show. IMO.

The purist in me wants the same thing. A class of true engineering skill and innovation. But the reality of the political scene wouldn't allow a class dominated by a single, or couple of, manufacturers with LMH and LMdH being second class citizens.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I feel their pain. The BOP change was unfair in my opinion. I wanted to see another team win at lemans, but not at the expense of “the sport” in terms of fair competition. I don’t blame Toyota for being extremely ****ed off.

It's not hard to understand why they were highly dissatisfied with the unexpected BOP update but... they had everything in their hands until Hirakawa crashed. Hard to blame BOP for that tho

[Gerard C]

Now they know how to spell Alpine and squirrel in japanese…

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

The purist in me wants the same thing. A class of true engineering skill and innovation. But the reality of the political scene wouldn't allow a class dominated by a single, or couple of, manufacturers with LMH and LMdH being second class citizens.

It's already the case I fear. Want a nice prototype grid with a heavy BoP? Already exists. They want to go too far into "standardization" the way they go it all will end up with the same base, only name, logo, paint will allow to make the difference between a Toy', Glick or Ferrari. Good bye imagination then.

[RL17]

They lost 32 seconds between hour 14 and 15 when Hirakawa came in (even pitstops with 51 on hours 14,15 & 16) and only 25 seconds from 15 to 16 when they hit the red squirrel (with a yellow stripe)

looking at lap times for that period and the drivers in per pitstop details there's alot of fluff in their story

[TF110]

This is why bop is such a controversial topic. Imo it doesn't belong in the top class at Le Mans but its there. I think whatever they use, EOT/BOP there's going to be upset parties. I don't envy the ACO's job.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by TF110

This is why bop is such a controversial topic. Imo it doesn't belong in the top class at Le Mans but its there. I think whatever they use, EOT/BOP there's going to be upset parties. I don't envy the ACO's job.

Agreed. Fully. Just one point its not "only" the ACO.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Agreed. Fully. Just one point its not "only" the ACO.

Yes, I think the FIA had a say in it too. But either way it gave us the desired effect of a close contest, so you can't complain about it too much. At least it worked!

[XtC24]

I don't know if this was somehow talked about.
BOP was maybe not best but:

I think, everybody was already in the 3:28s for long time and Toyota's best lap was in 3:29 till late in Sunday.
They stayed out of trouble, made good pitstops and were close.
But the pace was not great.

Then suddenly when Hartley got in car late morning. - boom, he began setting faster faster laps, until he got into 3:27 and his best was faster than best time of the No. 51 Ferrari.

Its not the thing of the conditions or sth. They suddenly went faster.
Why they didn't do it earlier? They wanted to win and say: we were BOPed so badly, still we won?


Don't believe it. Strange.

[Adam43]

That is ridiculous. It is completely normal for cars to have different speeds at different times and conditions, with different drivers, tyres, traffic and varying management of tyres, fuel and reliability.

What evidence do I have for this convoluted conspiracy theory? Pretty much every previous race!

[XtC24]

You are exactly right.

That is why I wrote that it was not about conditions or sth.
All the race fastest 3:29. And then Box in, Hartley in, Box out and series of quick laps all of a sudden.

It's around lap 300

[Gerard C]

What did they they do with the squirrel body? Where was it stuck? Did only someone see it? Did it damage the restrictor? After or before the turbo? Actually. Will next step in BoP be to hang a synthetic squirrel tail after the rear view mirror? A la mode Esso with a tiger tail? Bigger? Same size? Smaller? Will it be made by Sparco or Stand 21? Does a squirrel bring luck in Japan?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

What did they they do with the squirrel body? Where was it stuck? Did only someone see it? Did it damage the restrictor? After or before the turbo? Actually. Will next step in BoP be to hang a synthetic squirrel tail after the rear view mirror? A la mode Esso with a tiger tail? Bigger? Same size? Smaller? Will it be made by Sparco or Stand 21? Does a squirrel bring luck in Japan?

Ah but will the squirrel cause problems in pit stops? Will they get in trouble for an extra person touching the car while stationary. Gerry, you sound as confused as I am with all the 'parity'/BoP parameters and options.

[Matador]

They should probably hand a squirrel tail from the exhaust going forward no for good luck.

[Gerard C]

Or may be they'll use the squirrel tail position as a sign escaping the radio communication… Sign language: tail up=great moment; tail down=was a great moment, refill; tail middle position + finger up=take that squirrel!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by XtC24

You are exactly right.

That is why I wrote that it was not about conditions or sth.
All the race fastest 3:29. And then Box in, Hartley in, Box out and series of quick laps all of a sudden.

It's around lap 300

Hartley probably was more comfortable with the car than Hirakawa? And if he's fresh, then he's ready to push and they always give new drivers new tires. Kobayashi said that the tires used were softer this season because of the blanket ban. So they were overheating (as shown early on with Conway). It's possible that the cool air helped Toyota in that area because they were used to running 'cold' tires and overheating was less of an issue.

[Adam43]

Kobayashi had a wonderful pole and a quick stint. I thought I would look at the relative pace of the drivers.

Average Lap time

Rank	Car	Fastest	Top 10	Top 20	Top 40	Laps
1	Kamui KOBAYASHI (G) Toyota 7	1:30.780	1:31.156	1:31.327	1:31.505	75
2	Ryo HIRAKAWA (P) Toyota 8	1:31.130	1:31.283	1:31.383	1:31.602	76
3	Jose Maria LOPEZ (P) Toyota 7	1:30.812	1:31.117	1:31.328	1:31.628	78
4	Mike CONWAY (S) Toyota 7	1:30.989	1:31.424	1:31.619	1:31.832	76
5	Sébastien BUEMI (P) Toyota 8	1:31.059	1:31.470	1:31.652	1:31.907	79
6	Brendon HARTLEY (S) Toyota 8	1:31.642	1:31.822	1:31.924	1:32.085	74

Kobayashi had the fastest lap and the Top 20 and Top 50 average. Lopez had the best Top 10 - lost out on any better because he was stuck behind the Porsche?

Buemi quickest in the other car, but super strong showing from Hirakawa with lots and lots of quick laps.

Hartley did not have a good race - sounded like the car had a little problem by the time he was in the car?

[joeb]

I'm putting this here because it involves Toyota, but it is actually a really good history of Dome at Le Mans with 101 and 102 cars. The 102 with no shark fin is one of my favorite looking prototypes of all time

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...-wec/10525963/

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm putting this here because it involves Toyota, but it is actually a really good history of Dome at Le Mans with 101 and 102 cars. The 102 with no shark fin is one of my favorite looking prototypes of all time

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...-wec/10525963/

+1