The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Thanks Japanese Samurai. Is there a digital version of the magazine available somewhere ?

You can buy it at as-books.jp.
http://www.as-books.jp/
And Amazon Kindle edition will be available soon at Amazon.co.jp.
Search the Amazon for "motor fan illustrated"
http://www.amazon.co.jp/In-English/b...8&node=1094656

[tomerswayler]

Originally Posted by TF110

Its probably a lot higher than 5200rpm. Maybe even double that. Would not be too surprised to see next year's engine be that low (if increased in displacement).

I think you're right. A rpm of about 10000 and a power output of 400kW seems more plausible for a natural aspirated engine if i consider the Audi turbo engine with 3,7 l displacement revs to 4700rpm and makes about the same power.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

You can buy it at as-books.jp.
http://www.as-books.jp/
And Amazon Kindle edition will be available soon at Amazon.co.jp.
Search the Amazon for "motor fan illustrated"
http://www.amazon.co.jp/In-English/b...8&node=1094656

Thanks

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

Thanks again!
More questions to come...

What is the range of the vertical efficiency axis?
What do the descriptions in the diagram point to?

In the meantime i looked at the frequencies from the audio part of this onboard video of the TS030 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cpGOAA1YlA ) and calculated from that a maximum engine rpm of about 5200 rpm. Can anybody confirm this rev?

Some time ago, Japanese Samurai posted a reportage about GT500 cars. It was revealed that the Lexus SC430 RV8K engine has a torque peak less than 400Nm. The TS030 motor is a modified and updated version of that engine, that keeps the same low torque - high rev nature. At 5200rpm, the engine barely could develope 300hp.

[tomerswayler]

Thanks for that info. Do you still know when samurai posted this reportage?

If the wikipedia power number of 395 kW ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS030_Hybrid ) is correct, then from a torque of 400Nm we could calculate

2*Pi*f = Power / Torque = 395000 W / 400 Nm = 987,5 1/s, that would be a rpm of 9430.

If i calculate power as P = 0,5 * f * p_av * V (0,5 because of the 4 stroke engine, p_av the average pressure of ~15bar=15*10^5 Pa for NA race engines and V = 0,0034m³ being the displacement), this would give a frequency of 154,9 1/s or a rpm of 9294.

So my calculated of 5200rpm was probably wrong due to the sound quality of the video, and the correct max rev should be in the region of 10400rpm.

[carbon_titanium]

The article was posted by the user Bobby_GT6262 in the 2013 super GT section, not by Japanese Samurai.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/11/...t500-in-detail

on page 2, is revealed the torque of the RV8K GT500 engine, 392Nm.

Actually I don't trust wikipedia, only TMG engineers know the real power output of the TS030 motor. I bet my 2 cents that only in the last 2 races, TMG used a full power engine setting. At Le Mans both toyota's could never be able to finish the race using the engine revving close to 10000rpm.

[manthey]

Oreca will be partner of tmg also for 2014?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by manthey

Oreca will be partner of tmg also for 2014?

Yes. Still partnering with them.

As for the engine, not sure the rpm but I know the Rebellion engine runs a larger restrictor than the GT500 lexus.

[tomerswayler]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

...Actually I don't trust wikipedia, only TMG engineers know the real power output of the TS030 motor. I bet my 2 cents that only in the last 2 races, TMG used a full power engine setting. At Le Mans both toyota's could never be able to finish the race using the engine revving close to 10000rpm.

Of course, we'll never know the exact power of the engine, but the mentioned 395kW come very close to what Toyota has published here (530hp): http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/to...-ts030-hybrid/

And for me a maximum rev of 10000 doesn't sound to hard to achieve, even with an engine that's made for the 24h race. But that's only the max rev, the average rpm for the complete race will be somewhere in the region of 9000-9500 imo. The estimations in my post above show that with the help of the estimated torque and average pressure in the combustion chamber a rpm of at least 9000 is needed to achieve the 395 kW.

[carbon_titanium]

Official statements never tell the truth. Peugueot always claimed 700hp for the 908HDi, but in a recent interview Wurz said that the car had >800hp. This year audi sport officially reported 510hp as max power of the 2013 R18 etron quattro. Don't need to say that was a lie.

[silente]

if that power figures were right, we would have cars with no drag at all to achieve the speeds they have in Le Mans...

[TF110]

Audi probably puts out around 600hp with the r18. No reason to believe the team's estimations. Toyota probably making 580hp is my guess.

[silente]

I totally agree with TF110 figure...that's much closer to what i found with my calculations as well...more or less...

[tomerswayler]

If the real power figures are higher than the published, what i think is very likely, then the estimated rpm would also be higher if you look at my calculations above. Probably pretty close to the 10400 rpm that the second guess gave from the frequency analysis.

silente, how did you calculate the power?

I did some calculations on my own for the Audi by looking at the published telemetry data from onboard videos (speed vs. time) and the topspeed and estimated the wheel power from that as

P_wheel = ( mass x acceleration + drag ) x speed.

This estimation showed me a maximum combustion engine power at the wheels of ~560hp and a maximum combined wheel power (combustion + electric) of ~750hp. The electric power was used up to ~258km/h.

What do think of these numbers?

[Japanese Samurai]

I've checked out the MFi magazine again.
Hisatake Murata (Toyota) says that max rev of TS030 engine is around 10,000 rpm.

[silente]

This estimation showed me a maximum combustion engine power at the wheels of ~560hp

This calculation depends of course on the assumption we do about Drag coefficients and rolling resistance.

Also, the speed shown on Audi's videos are somehow misleading. They show much lower speeds that what is shown on FIA website, for example.

Anyway, according to what i found, your estimation should be more or less correct.

I wrote something about that here:

http://drracing.wordpress.com/2013/0...deling-part-2/

[TF110]

Looks like TMG is hiring. Some high profile positions as well, like cfd and aero engineers.

[JoestForEver]

Giving up people who are from the demised Peugeot ?

[Acid09]

Keep in mind that TMG has other business activities not related to the LMP1 project so we never know what these job openings are for.

In the past, some of these mentioned the LMP project specifically, none of these do though.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Giving up people who are from the demised Peugeot ?

Hiring more staff doesnt mean replacing staff.