'10 LMS Round 1 • Castellet • April 9-11

[Mike_Wooshy]

Or could someone who is a die hard Audi fan spread any more negative wildfire towards the Peugeot camp ?

[chernaudi]

Audi slowed development of the R10 for the ALMS in '07, and we all know what happened there. Did it hurt them? Hard to tell. Did it help them? Certianly not!

Only when Audi started to race the newer 2007 spec cars did their fortune in the ALMS pick up and they started to win races again, and that carried though in '08, and they needed that against Peugeot.

Am I saying that Peugeot will fall flat on their face? No, but a lack of development on the car won't help them against Audi who have seemed to right most of the wrongs with the original R15 and seem to have a rejuvinated driver line up who have mostly been favorable to the R15(I won't name those who seem to have problems with it, but considering what they drove in the past, it won't be hard to figure out), and have got the people they need who got shipped to the DTM program last year.

I personally hope that a lack of development on the 908 doesn't bite Peugeot, but it very well may, since it seems that the R15 still holds the edge outside of Le Sarthe, and very little of what works there will work elsewhere, and even at Le Mans, the big one, Peugeot may be on the short end of the stick. After all, Audi took advantage of Peugeot/ACO pressue to address things that they didn't like with the original R15, and if it cost Peugeot, it's their fault.

And when one considers that Bruno Famin himself has stated that the 2010 cars aside from very minor changes(engine electronics, and other measures to get back the ACO's 3% power drop for diesels) are basically as for 2009, one has to wonder what Peugeot is thinking and is the 908 really still competitive, or did they cut development cost to preserve their 2010 program, which expanded into the LMIC?

[Holt]

The ORECA Peugeot's "ideal race fast lap" was only .117 slower then the R15's fastest race lap, which was it's ideal fast lap. Top speed difference over the weekend was in the R15's favor of about 5kph, nothing too startling.

Its unlikely ORECA has the best Peugeot engine or chassis. The ORECA team, and its drivers Panis and Lapierre were relatively unfamiliar with the 908 and most likely aren't quite capable of putting the lap times that Lamy, Bourdais, Montagny and Minassian are capable of with their vast experience.

I say Peugeot is looking good with all things considered including the car's reliability.

We know the 908 is a beast at Le Mans, but we dont know how the R15+ will handle the unique track. In 2009 the R15 gave the 908s all they wanted at Sebring but were butchered at Le Mans.

Spa can't come soon enough.

[chernaudi]

But how much faster or slower was the R15's ideal fastest lap during the race?

I doubt that the factory cars(same specification basically as the Oreca car and basically the same spec areo and chassis wise as '09) would be much faster, just as the Joest cars generally weren't much faster than Champion's cars in the ALMS. Over a flying lap, yes, but put the same guy in both cars, and the overall laptimes will be about the same at this stage though a minimum of development.

It seems that Peugeot may not be slipping Oreca equipment that's clearly inferior to the factory cars(like with Pescarolo last year) if they want Oreca to feature well in the LMS races with the big factory teams(Spa and Silverstone, to name two), but if they don't have all the 2010 parts, it would've showed, and I don't think that the Pug's are all that reliable, certinaly not much more so than the R15 or R10-aside from overheating problems at LM, the only reliabilty issues that the R15 had was a CV joint scare at Sebring during practice-and that was just a scare-and a similar issue with a rear shock/damper at PLM-also during testing. Since the R15's debut, one 908 blew a gearbox at Sebring and had cooling fan issues, and one almost didn't make the start due to hydraulic problems. At LM, one car sustained a broken suspension or a wheel bearing while leading, and the cars that finished 1-2 had brake and clutch problems. And it seems that the 908s have a tendancy to crack tubs-which caused scares at Sebring both in '09 and '10. And then there's Oreca's engine failure during testing, which if it's a 2010 engine, might be cause for concern for the factory team unless they know it was a freak deal.

It seems that Audi may bring the best-and worst-out of the 908. And it just seems to still be a tempermental car in reliablity(especially the hydraulics) and to drive(stiff springing). I think that Spa may favor the Audis as far as handling and braking, but the factory Pugs might still have the speed edge, but with the Oreca car being slower in a straightline(with LM bodywork, albeit with a detuned engine), that might be an issue with the set up on the Oreca car or a real issue(maybe it's time that Peugeot got rid of the high downforce diveplanes that the still run on their LM bodywork to reduce drag )

[Dani Filth]

".117 slower then the R15's fastest race lap, which was it's ideal fast lap."

[chernaudi]

I though that the ideal lap was the fastest sectors, not the fastest overall lap, unless that fastest lap had the fastest sectors, which is unlikely because what are the odds of a 100% prefect lap? Astronomical, and rarely does the fastest lap have all the fastest sectors.

I'll bet that the Audi's ideal lap was at least slightly faster than the recorded fastest lap. It's just like how I think that Kristen Stewart is the ideal woman, but I have no doubt that many won't agree with me.

Where can sector times be found?

[arakis]

to me there seems to be that audi fans are so used to audi dominating that they are totaly blind to anything else, not that peugeut fans are any better.

from what I've seen there is little or no information available about how the two cars will do in 2010 specs at le mans. and since both manufacturers only care about le mans its pointless to argue, wait for spa and you may or may not have nore info there, but one thing is for certain, neither Audi or Peugeut have shown any kind of advantige up untill now. 0.117sec can easyly tur into a second come Le Mans and it can go either way!

[arakis]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I though that the ideal lap was the fastest sectors, not the fastest overall lap, unless that fastest lap had the fastest sectors, which is unlikely because what are the odds of a 100% prefect lap? Astronomical, and rarely does the fastest lap have all the fastest sectors.

I'll bet that the Audi's ideal lap was at least slightly faster than the recorded fastest lap. It's just like how I think that Kristen Stewart is the ideal woman, but I have no doubt that many won't agree with me.

Where can sector times be found?

I belive dani filth just confirmed that witch you are calling unlikly. The AUDIS fastest lap was its IDEAL lap, in athor words, the Fastest lap mad by Audi, was also the lap in witch they made all fastest sector times

Download the pdf book let from www.lemans-series.com go to results anfd there you can find all the sector ideal and fastes lap tims for all free practices, qulify and race laps

[chernaudi]

Here's what I got from their site:

Audi ideal vs actual best: 1:42.381 vs 1:42.541

Peugeot ideal vs actual best: 1:42.498 vs 1:43.166

And according to the same data, the Audi was faster in all sectors, but barely. Also, the other Oreca car(the AIM V10 gasser) was slightly faster than both the Audi and Pug in sector 3, but again barely.

But what can be inferred? That the Audi can run closer to its ideal lap time and do so more consistantly? Or is the Pug still a little twitchy due to it's trademark open wheel-esque suspension set up(and Paul Ricard doesn't even have that many bumps or high curbs)? Or is lap times irrelevant and it's the average lap time that matters?

Also, the Pug set it's fast lap very early on, by about lap 5, while the Audi set a fast lap early as well but bettered it late in the event. So it seems that the Audi was a little more consistant though out the race, but the biggest fluctulations(obviously) came in traffic, which seemed to be the Pug's bain most of the time.

[arakis]

After 3 years of anlizng evry lap of every race I could get info on, between porsche and ferrari, and going over it multiple times,here is the conclusion :
everything is relative
and its pointles to look to deep into laptimes, unless you have, the telemetry and the skills to read them. trust me, there is no way in hell I or anyone who is not Peugeut or Audi personell to have any idea about their true performance. Reading lap data without telemetry is like braging with laptimes in road cars.

here are just little things that can render reading laptimes meaningless , small driver error, traffic, poor tire choice, etc,etc

these are not machines driving in controled enviroment that you can simply read by checking out lap times. Unless you know that each driver drove every lap perfectly without any trafic, you might have an idea bout whats going on from the laptimes,and even then I wonder

[chernaudi]

Everything is relative, namely that there is probably never going to be a 100% perfect lap with a 100% perfect car with a 100% perfect driver behind the wheel.

But I feel that the following can be infered:

Audi now has a car that can(emphisis on can) equal Peugeot on a high speed track, not just and ALMS-style track.

Oreca might be basically the Peugeot junior varsity team(as their goal is to win the LMS, and possibly serve as back up for the LMIC if the Peugeot factoy team couldn't run it), but that's hard to say as they have a mostly 2010 spec car.

Audi and very well Peugeot have some cards they ain't shown yet; Audi due to car development and Peugeot due to them unquestionably sandbagging at Sebring(Audi had a 2009 R15 with the 2010 engine package that ran over a second faster and Peugeot's best race lap in a private test a couple of months ago), and Audi probably didn't show their full hand at Paul Ricard, as it was seen basically as a shakedown for Spa and Le Mans.

Audi seems to have a better car for twisty high downforce cirucits, which should help them at Spa and in the LMIC.

But the question remains: Has Peugeot really cut back R&D on the 908, and if so, could it cost them LM and the LMIC, especially if the Audi improves even further? And with Paul Ricard being just one race with no factoy Peugeots, trying to make a major judgement may be just as useless as using Sebring as a meter stick as no Audis were entered, but Paul Ricard at least had a factory supported 908 that was mostly a 2010 car.

[arakis]

nope, non of that can be infered with any amount of reasonable accuracy.

being 0.11 sec faster on the only race they compared each other means absolutly nothing, and nothing can't be infered from it.

because bouth those cars could have gonne faster, and trying to predict witch car could have gone how much faster is as accurate as reading tarrot cards.

Getting hopes up based on basicly lies produced by the Audi and Peugeut show is useless, my addvice, just enjoy the racing, and wait for the first few houres of le mans for any realistic predictions

[chernaudi]

So because the diesels are most likely sandbagging we can't infer anything? What about the Aston Martin-they're likely sandbagging, too, because the Oreca AIM was faster than it.

So when manufacturers are involved, we can't infer anything with accuracy until they actually cut loose, which likely won't be until Le Mans, if that?

[Félix]

And if simply enjoying it could mean writing less posts with less than 1000 words, alleluyah! Seriously, there is very little to talk about. If Oreca had been on the same lap as Audi for the whole race we would know much better. Spa should give us more to talk about. For now, it's just extreme speculation while testing is quietly going on... and we're not invited so DON'T speculate about that too!

[arakis]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

So because the diesels are most likely sandbagging we can't infer anything? What about the Aston Martin-they're likely sandbagging, too, because the Oreca AIM was faster than it.

So when manufacturers are involved, we can't infer anything with accuracy until they actually cut loose, which likely won't be until Le Mans, if that?

exacly, but if its fun for you, please don't let me stop you, god knows I've speculated FvP races to death with little or no data

[chernaudi]

Well, here's something that can be speculated on: Do the displays on the steering wheels or dashboards give speeds? I know that in a photo that Audi released as part of TK's LM countdown I posted in the Audi 2010 topic does display laptimes when asked to do so, but from the onboards from the AMR Lola, I noticed a readout that read numbers in the 320.xxx-325.xxx range-was that km/h?

[Holt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

... I don't think that the Pug's are all that reliable, certinaly not much more so than the R15 or R10-aside from overheating problems at LM, the only reliabilty issues that the R15 had was a CV joint scare at Sebring during practice-and that was just a scare-and a similar issue with a rear shock/damper at PLM-also during testing.

The #3 R15 was plagued with all sorts of problems at Le Mans '09 and made many unscheduled pitstops. I think they even had to change out a turbo on the car.

The McNish/Kristensen/Capello Audi R15 at Le Mans '09 suffered from overheating throughout the entire race that called for costly unscheduled pitstops and trips into the garage. The problem was so bad it was costing them power and the car almost lost 3rd to an Aston Martin late in the race

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Since the R15's debut, one 908 blew a gearbox at Sebring and had cooling fan issues, and one almost didn't make the start due to hydraulic problems. At LM, one car sustained a broken suspension or a wheel bearing while leading, and the cars that finished 1-2 had brake and clutch problems. And it seems that the 908s have a tendancy to crack tubs-which caused scares at Sebring both in '09 and '10. And then there's Oreca's engine failure during testing, which if it's a 2010 engine, might be cause for concern for the factory team unless they know it was a freak deal.

All 3 factory Peugeots finished the '09 Le Mans 24 hours
Both factory Peugeots finished 5 hours at at Petit Le Mans '09
Both factory Peugeots finished 12 hours of Sebring '10

That's roughly 40 straight hours of racing with all cars finishing the race essentially trouble free. Throw out the silly pitstop problem oreca suffered at Paul Ricard and thats 8 more hours.

Since 2007 7 out of 8 factory Peugeot 908s have finished the Le Mans 24 hours.

Since 2007 6 out of 9 Factory Audis have finished the Le Mans 24 hours.

If I remember correctly Bourdais or Montagny (cant remember which) said that the brake problems at Le Mans '09 turned out to not be a problem at all. He said Peugeot told them to back it down when they were chasing the #9 for the overall lead but later said there was no reason to as the brakes were fine. The engineers misread info or something.

If the #7 Peugeot didn't have the pit incident (which damaged contributed to its later problems) Le Mans '09 would have been a clean 1-2-3 sweep by Peugeot.

Since Peugeot returned to Le Mans in 2007 they have put 5 of 8 cars on the podium compared to Audi putting 3 of 9 on the podium. Audi has entered 3 cars per race since 2007, but only 1 car managed to finish on the podium each year. Peugeot is nearly averaging 2 cars on the podium per year. Peugeot has flat out done a better job then Audi these last few years. And with almost twice as many cars taking podiums I say the reliabiliy of the 908 is just fine.

I would love to dig more into the 8 hours of Paul Ricard but there was no real reason to, too much sandbagging and a team relatively inexperienced with the 908 (ORECA) working with a hand me down car.

Spa will give a much clearer picture, but we really wont know for sure until June 12 when they actually go racing...until then its just educated guesses.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

but from the onboards from the AMR Lola, I noticed a readout that read numbers in the 320.xxx-325.xxx range-was that km/h?

Has to be kph, I noticed it too, it seemed to stall out in the 32x.xxx range as it would reach it quite quickly but never seemed to go to 330+. Aston Martin should have the top speed at Le Mans this year.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Holt

The #3 R15 was plagued with all sorts of problems at Le Mans '09 and made many unscheduled pitstops. I think they even had to change out a turbo on the car.

The McNish/Kristensen/Capello Audi R15 at Le Mans '09 suffered from overheating throughout the entire race that called for costly unscheduled pitstops and trips into the garage. The problem was so bad it was costing them power and the car almost lost 3rd to an Aston Martin late in the race



All 3 factory Peugeots finished the '09 Le Mans 24 hours
Both factory Peugeots finished 5 hours at at Petit Le Mans '09
Both factory Peugeots finished 12 hours of Sebring '10

That's roughly 40 straight hours of racing with all cars finishing the race essentially trouble free. Throw out the silly pitstop problem oreca suffered at Paul Ricard and thats 8 more hours.

Since 2007 7 out of 8 factory Peugeot 908s have finished the Le Mans 24 hours.

Since 2007 6 out of 9 Factory Audis have finished the Le Mans 24 hours.

If I remember correctly Bourdais or Montagny (cant remember which) said that the brake problems at Le Mans '09 turned out to not be a problem at all. He said Peugeot told them to back it down when they were chasing the #9 for the overall lead but later said there was no reason to as the brakes were fine. The engineers misread info or something.

If the #7 Peugeot didn't have the pit incident (which damaged contributed to its later problems) Le Mans '09 would have been a clean 1-2-3 sweep by Peugeot.

Since Peugeot returned to Le Mans in 2007 they have put 5 of 8 cars on the podium compared to Audi putting 3 of 9 on the podium. Audi has entered 3 cars per race since 2007, but only 1 car managed to finish on the podium each year. Peugeot is nearly averaging 2 cars on the podium per year. Peugeot has flat out done a better job then Audi these last few years. And with almost twice as many cars taking podiums I say the reliabiliy of the 908 is just fine.

I would love to dig more into the 8 hours of Paul Ricard but there was no real reason to, too much sandbagging and a team relatively inexperienced with the 908 (ORECA) working with a hand me down car.

Spa will give a much clearer picture, but we really wont know for sure until June 12 when they actually go racing...until then its just educated guesses.



Has to be kph, I noticed it too, it seemed to stall out in the 32x.xxx range as it would reach it quite quickly but never seemed to go to 330+. Aston Martin should have the top speed at Le Mans this year.

Your correct in many of your comparisons, but you forget the simple fact that Audi won 07 and 08 where Peugeot only won 09.

[chernaudi]

The biggest problem that the #3 Audi had at LM last year was a fuel pump problem what seemed to be a once in a million problem, like the Pug's airjack problem was(aside from the fact that it was rumored to be hydraulics related, which to me has always been a Peugeot sticking point, as those hydraulics haven't always been reliable, even recently as last year), as well as drivers who rode the curbs too hard and jammed the power steering and had too little expirence in an LMP1 car.

In reality, the problems that Peugeot had at LM and such are more numerous and their sheer speed negated a lot of that, especially in '08. But as has been proven, if you have issues, a fast car won't always save you. Yes, the Pugs should be more reliable now, but how much of that is the ACO ratcheting back the diesels-smaller air restrictors and reduced turbocharger boost means less power and more fuel mileage, and above all else less stress on the car's mechanicals. The years that the Pugs had trouble was the years with the big air restrictors and turbo boost numbers.

Audi on the other hand last year got side tracked with an aero concept that didn't pay the dividends they wanted, and had to hire at the last minute two drivers(Bernhard and Dumas) who had little LMP1 experience and didn't like the R15-how they adapt to the 2010 R15 may rule for or against their future at Audi. And don't get me started on the Porsche/VW politics, which although resolved in VW's favor due to Porsche's near bankruptcy, it still took away from the LM program.

Audi seems to be more focused this year with a car that they seem to have confidence in once more, and are going up against a car even though Peugeot seem to have confidence in, it seems to have minimal development compared to last year, due in part likely to Peugeot's own fincancial concerns. Either Peugeot believes that the all-motor 908 is still the ticket to LM, or they've saved the R&D money for a rainy day(read 909, or more likely, the LMIC).

Audi's cars have tended to be more reliable at LM, while Peugeot seems to be faster. Last year, with Audi somewhat sidetracked, Peugeot got luck on their side for once. But like with Audi last year, Peugeot's luck can run out, but we won't find out until June, won't we?

[Purist]

It didn't help Audi #3 last year either, that they stuffed it at Indianapolis only a few laps into the race.

I still think Audi are vulnerable to those same overheating problems as last year. There's still plenty of that open real-estate on the front end to collect errant gravel.

Also, did they ever track down conclusively what failed on the #2 Audi last year that put the car in the wall hard at the entrance to the Porsche Curves?

[chernaudi]

Main problem with the R15 at Le Mans last year was trash getting into the intercoolers, probably due in part to the louvred sidepods. The screen infront of the radiators caught the stuff from under the nose of the car, but not the stuff that went over the sidepods and into those louvres. Hence why Audi has closed off the sidepods(also to reduce drag) and made it easier to clean the radiator intakes. Also, reportedly, the R15's front diffuser has numerous tuning vanes/vortex generators to function as stakes instead of two big stakes, but they also help filter out the debris from the track as well. The LM spec 908 gets most of it's air in much the same was as the R15 does now-from under or around the front diffuser.

[Mal]

After all this analysis one thing is clear - it should be one hell of a race in June

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Mal

After all this analysis one thing is clear - it should be one hell of a race in June

not only in June, things will start in all seriousness this weekend at Spa