[Team] Racing Point: What now for Force India

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So in a nutshell, the company behind Racing Point is a new company but the shares in Force India Formula One Team Limited were not sold, so ownership of the company has not changed.

Exactly, and Force India Formula One Team dropped out of F1 mid-way through the season.

Racing Point Force India is a brand new organisation that joined F1 mid-way through this year, having purchased assets from another, defunct team.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If you view it from the perspective of IP assets, physical locations and to a large extent staff, then yes. If you define a "team" in that way then you can trace lineage over various owners and names. There is nothing wrong with doing it that way and I do it that way at times as it helps from a historic perspective. And that lineage is real and important.

personally this is how i would like to view it. afterall this is sports and not a financial accounting class about corporate share structure. irrespective of legal definitions, i dont want to think about corporations as people. frankly thats boring imo!

recognizing the team's history, it's IP, facilities, and more importantly its staff (ie real people) is how i prefer to view my sports teams.

this may be wrong according to the Concorde Agreement and centuries of common and civil law but RP is for me the same team as Force India, as Midland, as Spyker, as Jordan.

that F1 cant properly reconcile its own history is indeed an example of F1 being 'broken'.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So in a nutshell, the company behind Racing Point is a new company but the shares in Force India Formula One Team Limited were not sold, so ownership of the company has not changed.

To add to that... I believe one of the assets that remained with the old legal entity was the entry in the championship. Per the existing rules, the old entity couldn't continue (no cars, etc.) so that entry became defunct and lost it points. A new entry was created for the new entity (that has cars, IP, staff, etc.)

A typical change in ownership would have included transfer of the entry and associate points and future column 1 payout. With "column 1" being the equally divided amount given to all teams which have finished in the top 10 places of the constructors’ championship in two of the past three seasons.

Interesting commentary below...

https://www.planetf1.com/news/haas-n...-india-racing/

I think a few sites are talking about this, but I think mostly behind paywalls. I think one point is that this was not about Haas saying the new FI is not a constructor because they don't own the IP, but rather to have the clarification that the new incarnation of FI is clearly a new entry within 2018 and not a continuation of the prior entry. So while the new team did still land in the top 10 with only nice races under the new entry, they should not be eligible for any column 1 money as they have yet to achieve 10th place or better in the WCC in two out of the past three years.

As my knowledge is limited, can someone confirm my understanding that the reborn FI is expected to receive column 1 money based upon the standings of the prior entry? The old FI was 4th in WCC in both 2016 and 2017, so if it had survived it should have received payments regardless of it's 2018 results.

I am not sure exactly what Haas is looking for at this point other than to remove funding from the new FI (to decrease their competitiveness in the short term) or are they looking for cash themselves?

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

As my knowledge is limited, can someone confirm my understanding that the reborn FI is expected to receive column 1 money based upon the standings of the prior entry? The old FI was 4th in WCC in both 2016 and 2017, so if it had survived it should have received payments regardless of it's 2018 results.

I am not sure exactly what Haas is looking for at this point other than to remove funding from the new FI (to decrease their competitiveness in the short term) or are they looking for cash themselves?

Richard

I believe you are correct that the new FI will be receiving Column 1 payments. This was part of the horse trading that went on when the administrators were attempting to come to a satisfactory conclusion to the deal. It was granted in return for both Stroll buying the assets, but more importantly, the new entity settling outstanding trade creditors.

The alternative could or would have been the company being liquidated, with the creditors, including the staff as well, receiving little or nothing. And that meant that not only would the team's personnel be paid any outstanding salaries, but they would also receive the bonuses that they would have been paid for past results.

As for Haas, I believe that they were unhappy that the new entity was going to receive the Column 1 payments, but they weren't. The problem is that before the arrangement was made with RPFI, all the teams agreed to the payment so that the team would continue. Haas has been and continues to regret that agreement, and so the protests.

[wolfhound]

On the subject of concord agreements. Bernie made individual agreements with each team. This meant that in all probability no two deals are the same and the deal that Haas got is not the same as say the deal with Williams or McLaren or Force India.
Following that logic FOM/Liberty are free to make a new bespoke deal with the new Racing point Force India and it would not need to be same deal that Haas got a few years ago.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

On the subject of concord agreements. Bernie made individual agreements with each team. This meant that in all probability no two deals are the same and the deal that Haas got is not the same as say the deal with Williams or McLaren or Force India.
Following that logic FOM/Liberty are free to make a new bespoke deal with the new Racing point Force India and it would not need to be same deal that Haas got a few years ago.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing on the prior page. Ferrari is a clear example of "unique arrangements" being incorporated! With that previously have been more of a "Bernie" thing, we may have our first example of this being a "Liberty" thing as well. Should make future agreement negotiations interesting if everyone feels everything is negotiable regardless of what has been agreed to previously by other teams!

Richard

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Is this like the Andrea Moda/Coloni saga all over again?

No, those cars aren't worth disputing who owned what because they hardly turned a wheel 😂

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And if tomorrow, I went out and purchased the total Ferrari shareholding, then, by your logic, Ferrari would cease to exist?

Yet you ignore the fact that throughout Ferrari's history it has had various different owners. Until fairly recently it was a subsidiary of the Fiat Group, but now it is a stand alone company, with it's shares on the New York stock market.

Funnily enough, I didn't hear anyone claiming that it was a new team!

Under the rules of this particular enterprise and this enterprise ONLY, they are a new company. The rules state it clearly and the stewards have ruled they are a new entry. It will be an easy case for Haas and Racing Pointe will get no money without ignoring the rules

[wnut]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Under the rules of this particular enterprise and this enterprise ONLY, they are a new company. The rules state it clearly and the stewards have ruled they are a new entry. It will be an easy case for Haas and Racing Pointe will get no money without ignoring the rules

Renault only bought into F1 after being guaranteed Column 1 payments, so there has been a precedent set, additionally Haas signed the Monza agreement, and Liberty will doubtless point out just how tough things could get if Haas continue down this path.

[peebee2]

Think you’re confused wnut.

Renault were guaranteed that money as they bought a majority of shares in an existing team, so not a new team at all.

What they looked for, and got, was the historical uplift that the other major players get varying shares of.

[Peter Mallett]

Anyway do we know if Stroll got the seat?

[Adam43]

Still not confirmed? Maybe they have doubts?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Still not confirmed? Maybe they have doubts?

It seems odd that they haven't confirmed. The only reason I can come up with is that they are looking to tie multiple things together in a single announcement? Such as partnership/sponsorship deals. Buy why steal the thunder of those. Announce drivers now and then partners/sponsors can have their own day in the new cycle.

Richard

[Adam43]

I doubt there is anything in it. There is no real gain to any particular announcement date.

Although people are wondering and asking questions!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Think you’re confused wnut.

Renault were guaranteed that money as they bought a majority of shares in an existing team, so not a new team at all.

What they looked for, and got, was the historical uplift that the other major players get varying shares of.

Originally Posted by wnut

Renault only bought into F1 after being guaranteed Column 1 payments, so there has been a precedent set, additionally Haas signed the Monza agreement, and Liberty will doubtless point out just how tough things could get if Haas continue down this path.

Exactly what peebee said, there's no precedent set. Renault bought a team and changed the entry name as per the regulations. Force India was closed mid season and all assets transferred to another entry. Regardless if how the company is registered for business it who works there, the rules for payments cover the entry. And as the stewards ruled it's a new entry. So now FOM/LM need to work out how their cobbled together mid season save the team who was about to close paperwork will work out legally.

Personally I think there will be a happy medium somewhere and as Haas is not an F1 guy first and foremost her is a business guy. He got nothing for his initial investment of making a new team and keeping it around, regardless of how people feel about how much is needed before he's a constructor. But then a new entry gets more money for less effort, he feels he's been screwed by the rules right now and a settlement may ease that. And then Racing Pointe gets something for their purchase of the team and keeping a team on the grid who otherwise likely would have closed mid-season and been liquidated.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Anyway do we know if Stroll got the seat?

I thought his dad bought him the team.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I doubt there is anything in it. There is no real gain to any particular announcement date.

Although people are wondering and asking questions!

Perhaps Mr Stroll is still under contract to Williams in 2018 and is not able to announce his 2019 plans yet...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Perhaps Mr Stroll is still under contract to Williams in 2018 and is not able to announce his 2019 plans yet...

Williams have announced their 2018 drivers in public, Stroll should be free and clear by any measure.
Perhaps he can sue Williams for wrongful dismissal.

[Skam85]

Maybe they are announcing the new-new team name along with Stroll.

[E.B]

I thought it might have been perhaps a delay in SFW agreeing the amount of the penalty payout due for the early exit of driver and sponsorship deals contracted to by Stroll Snr.

[S griffin]

It's interesting that they haven't announced Stroll. Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye

[VIVA GT]

Or maybe it's such an obvious done deal that they don't need to announce it?
Seriously, I think something must have cropped up to delay the announcement. In the Channel $ Qualifying pre-show Otmar Szafnauer was interviewed about Stroll deiving for them next year, and was very coy, but also said it would be announced 'this weekend' I'm sure.

[chunterer]

I've got a funny feeling he is going to give Checo a little shock next year.
Lance must have been blown away by the difference between the pink car and the white one he had toiled with.

[gary396]

Well Stroll drove for FI on both days of the Abu Dhabi test this week so it's a fair bet he's in.

https://www.tsl-timing.com/event/184889

[Peter Mallett]

As an aside, George Russel looks competent in the Williams.