The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[AGD]

I'm not sure if we will ever know the real answer to this, but it would be interesting to know how long these three driver's contracts are. The PR said it is undisclosed and I'm not sure if that information will ever go public. It would be interesting to know the length (especially for Wurz and Lapierre) because that might indicate Toyota's commitment to Le Mans racing. Toyota and Oreca keep saying only 2012 is confirmed for now, but I'm sure most of us believe that they will keep racing beyond just next year. Who knows exactly how long they planned commitment is though. Of course, perhaps Toyota has other plans for these guys besides just Le Mans racing. Who knows.

It's hard to say whether Wurz still has top pace or not, but he is a good development driver and Toyota may be interested in those talents at the moment. Plus, he also knows Peugeot and Joest pretty well having won at Le Mans for both of them so maybe there are some secrets that can be revealed. But, yeah, I think this announcement is almost more interesting in the sense of what it means for Peugeot rather than what it means for Toyota.

[kurski]

Hopefully, Toyota team is in use in 2013, two or three cars.

[porsche91722]

The point about Toyota and Oreca both talking about this one year time frame seems a bit weird. Here we are in November already, and other than some illustrations of the proposed car and Toyota saying that their drivers will be in a simulator until early 2012, that's one hell of a short lead time. Surely they would have to be in it for the long haul, of at least 3 years. With Toyota's generally conservative image in mind, I can't see them not hanging around for anything less than that. No matter how much money they throw at it, time is against them, to have a competitive car on the grid by LM24 time 2012. My money is still on a second car turning up with Lotterer being one of the drivers.

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by kurski

Hopefully, Toyota team is in use in 2013, two or three cars.

You may have been right about the multiple entries, if RLM's post is anything to go by:

Originally Posted by Specutainment

Wurz / Lapierre / Nakajima for Toyota. Minassian and Gene to follow? Lotterer also in frame. Expect 3 entries for Lm24 one all Japanese car.

Source: https://twitter.com/#!/specutainment...93163062067200

What they've said about Minassian/Gene is interesting.
Provided it's true.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Surely you would try and nab Brabham over Gene. He can't be that much in love with the Delta Wing.

[Acid09]

Wow, that's a huge blow for Peugeot, losing one of their best guys to the competition. Well, at least he's not heading for Audi... good luck Alex.

This is the first time that one of the high-profile works drivers switches camps, I wonder if we see more of that now.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Wow, that's a huge blow for Peugeot, losing one of their best guys to the competition. Well, at least he's not heading for Audi... good luck Alex.

This is the first time that one of the high-profile works drivers switches camps, I wonder if we see more of that now.

No - Paganaue and Brabham has switched between HPD/Acura and Peugeot several times.
Treluyer raced the Pesca Peugeot and switched to Audi.

We have seen it before, but this is indeed the biggest switch as Wurz will take more info with him to Toyota than any of the other moves.

[CTD]

Also, something tells me we will se Brabham in the HPD Lmp1 car.

But Toyota is going to gut the Peugeot crew completely, if the RLM rumor is going to be true!

But i'm still seeing this a good thing, as it will open of for new talents to enter at the top level.
Remember that Tom K, got signed with Joest very close to Le Mans 1997, and amazed everybody with his pace and general endurance ability.

[The Badger]

Whats the RLM rumour about ?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Whats the RLM rumour about ?

Minassian and Gene will also move to Toyota.

See the previous Twitter link.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

The point about Toyota and Oreca both talking about this one year time frame seems a bit weird. Here we are in November already, and other than some illustrations of the proposed car and Toyota saying that their drivers will be in a simulator until early 2012, that's one hell of a short lead time. Surely they would have to be in it for the long haul, of at least 3 years. With Toyota's generally conservative image in mind, I can't see them not hanging around for anything less than that. No matter how much money they throw at it, time is against them, to have a competitive car on the grid by LM24 time 2012. My money is still on a second car turning up with Lotterer being one of the drivers.

Toyota have already run two Dome based test cars before designing the final TMG model, the engine has been used by Rebellion, and I wouldn't be suprised if they are already designing their 2014 car.

[TF110]

I figured Nakajima would be apart of their crew, but Wurz is a good addition. Is Lapierre any good? I'm not familiar with him, but he was from Oreca's camp, correct? Nakajima seems to have improved in his form thanks to SuperGT, plus he has that endurance experience from there as well.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by CTD

No - Paganaue and Brabham has switched between HPD/Acura and Peugeot several times.
Treluyer raced the Pesca Peugeot and switched to Audi.

Treluyer wasn't racing for the works team nor was a works driver, Pagenaud & Brabham where always out on loan and HPD & Peugeot were hardly competitors at all.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Treluyer wasn't racing for the works team nor was a works driver, Pagenaud & Brabham where always out on loan and HPD & Peugeot were hardly competitors at all.

Treluyer ran with Pescarolo in a car close to factory spec, and could have been a driver in the pipes for a Peugeot seat. When he switched it created a lot of talk similar to this.

When it comes to discovering secrets at the competitor being on loan doesn't matter, you still see and hear everything. In the same way Wurz will take secrets to Toyota.

as a matter of fact, the Wurz move is less spectacular when it comes to secrets of the cars, than Treluyers move as Oreca will know EVERYTHING about the 908 and therefor rendering Wurz's information more or less irrelevant.

[Simmi]

Had a little back and forth with Hindy on twitter today and he said he'd be very surprised if there wasn't an all-Japanese car. I hope he's right.

To be honest I'd be over the moon with two cars at LM. With Autosport assuming one and RLM assuming three I'd be fine to go with the happy medium of two. John Dagys also said one car to me today. I think certainly we will get a one-car WEC entry.

If Toyota are just in this for the two years up until the reg change then why would you essentially chuck away year one with such limited running? You wouldn't...

My gut feeling is that they are in for the long-term but I can understand them coming in low-key and not wanting to get stung PR-wise. The WEC is the place to be. It would just be great to have them admit they will be around in 2014 as that would hopefully ensure a lot of other projects in the east get green-lit.

[Japanese Samurai]

Minoru Hayashi (president of Dome) is joking that it is an amateur's decision to choose Le Mans beginners (=Kazuki Nakajima) as a works driver.
He says, "Audi bought GT sheet of Porsche in order to make its works driver practice. On the other hand, Japanese businessman makes a risky decision."
http://twitter.com/#!/dome_hayashi/s...67846998491136

[AGD]

Originally Posted by CTD

But Toyota is going to gut the Peugeot crew completely, if the RLM rumor is going to be true!

But i'm still seeing this a good thing, as it will open of for new talents to enter at the top level.
Remember that Tom K, got signed with Joest very close to Le Mans 1997, and amazed everybody with his pace and general endurance ability.

I agree about wanting to see fresh faces or at least non-traditional faces. Like I have been saying for a few months now, the 6 overall winners of the last two Le Mans races have all been drivers with no F1 racing experience. I'd like to see more drivers like that than F1 rejects. Of course, Wurz is a little different as he won Le Mans years ago before he ever drove an F1 race if I recall correctly.

But, yeah, I can't see Toyota becoming the all Peugeot reject team. I also can't imagine Peugeot wanting to gut their entire team almost especially with the possibility of Bourdais and Pagenaud getting full-time IRL seats. Quick Nic and Gene may not be Peugeot's choice guys anymore, but do they really think di Grassi and Bert Breadstick are going to be any better?

Originally Posted by JAG

the engine has been used by Rebellion

Although there is one rumor saying the Rebellion engine will form as the basis of the factory Toyota powerplant, do we know for sure that this will be the case and that they won't go in a different direction? Like a small turbo? Either way, will it have DI?

Originally Posted by TF110

I figured Nakajima would be apart of their crew, but Wurz is a good addition. Is Lapierre any good? I'm not familiar with him, but he was from Oreca's camp, correct? Nakajima seems to have improved in his form thanks to SuperGT, plus he has that endurance experience from there as well.

I can't remember all of the lap times, but I remember Lapierre being quite good over the last couple of seasons in the Oreca 908 HF. Don't be surprised if he is the go-to guy if the three announced drivers are put in the same car.

Oreca had a pretty rough Le Mans this year and I'm not sure if there are any drivers to "blame" for that (obviously Panis was slow, but I don't think he got much track time either).

Originally Posted by Simmi

It would just be great to have them admit they will be around in 2014 as that would hopefully ensure a lot of other projects in the east get green-lit.

Everyone seems to think that just because Toyota is in now that Honda, Nissan, and who knows who else will want to jump in too. Well, I don't know. Maybe, but Honda and Nissan (especially) may consider Toyota's presence a turn-off now as Toyota's presence will likely escalate the budgets. Porsche's entry in 2014 will almost certainly do the same as I think we know what kind of commitment to winning they will have.

It's still unclear to me what Toyota's ambition is with their Le Mans program. Maybe they just want to try to be the first hybrid winner at Le Mans? If so, their participation could be very short. Conversely, if they want to show off the competitiveness of their hybrid package versus those of other companies, their participation may be longer. We'll have to see. A lot of us thought that Toyota would enter Le Mans racing with an all-conquering type attitude, but it's still hard to say if that will be true or not.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by AGD

I agree about wanting to see fresh faces or at least non-traditional faces. Like I have been saying for a few months now, the 6 overall winners of the last two Le Mans races have all been drivers with no F1 racing experience. I'd like to see more drivers like that than F1 rejects. Of course, Wurz is a little different as he won Le Mans years ago before he ever drove an F1 race if I recall correctly.

But, yeah, I can't see Toyota becoming the all Peugeot reject team. I also can't imagine Peugeot wanting to gut their entire team almost especially with the possibility of Bourdais and Pagenaud getting full-time IRL seats. Quick Nic and Gene may not be Peugeot's choice guys anymore, but do they really think di Grassi and Bert Breadstick are going to be any better?

You misunderstand the frace "to gut".
What i meant is that Toyota is picking out some of the best drivers at Peugeot, and therefor leaving Peugeot with a problem. (like if you gut a person, you leave them with the problem). Nothing to do with what Peugeot wants, only to do with what Toyota wants. (and if Minassian and Gene goes Toyota, a huge paycheck will be in place - believe me!)

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by AGD

Bert Breadstick

[AGD]

Originally Posted by CTD

You misunderstand the frace "to gut".
What i meant is that Toyota is picking out some of the best drivers at Peugeot, and therefor leaving Peugeot with a problem. (like if you gut a person, you leave them with the problem). Nothing to do with what Peugeot wants, only to do with what Toyota wants. (and if Minassian and Gene goes Toyota, a huge paycheck will be in place - believe me!)

It's certainly possible that Toyota would want to hire Gene and Minassian for their ability and also to weaken Peugeot, but I'm sure Peugeot is aware of what is going on and would not want to lose 3 drivers that they want to their competitor. They may not have a choice if Toyota offers mega contracts and promises, but who knows.

But, anyway, the rumor after Le Mans was that Peugeot was not so pleased with the pace of Minassian. Gene wasn't quick either, but I don't know if there were rumors about him. Peugeot may have valued him for his testing ability, who knows. Then there is Wurz as well. The point is would Peugeot want to gut themselves (whether it be their own decision to let these guys go or Toyota pillaging them and Peugeot doing nothing about it) of drivers (even if they are on Peugeot's "B" list) given that they already have to fill Lamy's seat and may have to fill Bourdais and/or Pagenaud's seats? It's a slim possibility, but it is possible that the only carry-over from 2011 are Davidson, Sarrazin, and Montagny.

[deggis]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...s-with-toyota/

Chaunac:

“We'll see afterwards for 2013 on how Toyota will want to develop and go forward. But 2012's focus is one team between TMG and ORECA. It's too early to think about [the future] because we have to focus on development of the car to make it successful.”

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by JAG

Toyota have already run two Dome based test cars before designing the final TMG model, the engine has been used by Rebellion, and I wouldn't be suprised if they are already designing their 2014 car.

and that other significant part of the puzzle...... the hybrid system?
We've seen how the best laid plans by some of the best in the business (Audi R15) have not come up trumps.
With the 2014 rule set, they would want to be getting themselves into gear, as Porsche will no doubt be, when they arrive on the scene in 2014

[CTD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

and that other significant part of the puzzle...... the hybrid system?
We've seen how the best laid plans by some of the best in the business (Audi R15) have not come up trumps.
With the 2014 rule set, they would want to be getting themselves into gear, as Porsche will no doubt be, when they arrive on the scene in 2014

The hybrid system is already very well tested.
Both in the Supra but also in the Dome.

Of course you can't test yourself out of everything (the R15 being a good example of this), but the car Toyota brings next year will be very well tested and race ready!

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by CTD

...................Both in the Supra .............
................but the car Toyota brings next year will be very well tested and race ready!

Well, I suppose if we use their F1 history as a guide, it's all looking good then.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Well, I suppose if we use their F1 history as a guide, it's all looking good then.

Just the fact that you compare the Le Mans effort with their F1 projects shows that you have no understanding of their efforts.

Some elements of the project started already in 2008 with the Dome S102 (this is with 80-90% certainty).
Toyota starts very low key with this project and speaks only of this year as testing and seeing what it will bring - Very different than the F1 project.
The simple fact that Toyota joins firstly with Rebellion to test engines and later Oreca shows how seriously and respectful they take this project, they have learned very much from the F1 project, and hasn't done the same mistake!

I think it's respect less to mock my comment without putting forth some arguments against.