The Pug Comedy Store: A Salute to B Famin

[isynge]

Originally Posted by jhansen

I agree with that. But are the privateers too private? I understand the go it alone attitude, which is necessary when you are taking on the likes of Audi and Peugeot. But you have small teams like Creation and Pescarolo basically undertaking chassis design and construction on top of their race programs. These are small organizations. The end result is a huge division of resources. Not to mention, they are spending time and money developing previous generation cars that were not built to today's rule set. All the while Zytek and Courage build and develop similar products. Then Lola and Dome.

It's an interesting way of looking at it, and while I inherently want to disagree, the lessons of history bear this out as an argument. Over the last 40 or so years I can't think of a time when a garagiste was able to consistently challenge a manufacturer - and what we often define as golden ages of sportcar racing, were ones where it was either manufacturers going head-to-head, or the privateers were using top line off the shelf chassis (956/962 being the obvious example).

Looking beyond that, we've had periods when Howmet, Ligier, Mirage, and Rondeau have had their fleeting moments of glory as private manufacturers/entrants, but really they come across as the exceptions, and in many cases were products of unusual periods in the sport.

That said, I find the array of different cars that are closely matched behind the diesels incredibly refreshing, there are fantastic battles going on when these machines go racing, and I'd be really sad if we end up with grids of identikit customer 908s and turnkey Lolas.

The optimist in me, looking at the strength of the LMS grid, says the ACO has a chance to break the boom-and-bust cycle that's typified sportscar racing for as long as I can remember by letting the privateers (without whom the LMS would have been pretty bleak the last couple of years) have a crack at winning. Okay - the 908s given the level of engineering excellence and teamwork they've got would/should still have won on Sunday, but consistently being 4 seconds a lap faster? It's magnificent but it's not racing.

[JAG]

So the 908 was 4 seconds a lap quicker than the petrol competition, logically this means the R10 is 4 seconds quicker AND the RS Spyder/Acua P2's at leat 2-3 seconds a lap quicker doesn't it?

Taken in isolation the pace of ther 908 is shocking, when you look at the respective pace of the R10, Spyder and Acura in the ALMS, it doesn't tally up.

If all this is to be taken at face value, we can expect Zytek and Creation to be 3-4 seconds off the pace of the R10, Spyder and Acura later this year.

Looking at the Nurburgring, the 908's race pace was 2-3 seconds slower than qualifying, the petrol cars were 4-6 seconds slower than qualifying.

At the risk of repeating myself the 908 was 2.5 seconds quicker than last years pole time, petrol cars were only half a second quicker, P2's were 1.5 seconds quicker.

I'd be interested to hear the views of chassis, engine and tyre contructors, how much time can each of these gain, or will no one speak out?

TBH, if Henri Pescarolo is the only one to speak out in public, and back this up with base figures, i.e. 100bhp diesel advantage, why shouldn't the ACO take their time?

IMO, team owners and chassis/engine constructors need to put out a joint statement, and back it up with figures, or keep quiet until next seasons regs are announced.

[Hammerdown]

Well, we know from the end of the ALMS last year that the Creation and Zytek could be as quick as the R10. Could it be that the Pug is actually a lot quicker than the Audi in short circuit configuration? After all the Pugs seem to have been about four seconds quicker than the best of the petrol cars at both LeMans and Nurburg, so I think they must have turned the wick down quite a bit for the 24H. Maybe not enough as it turned out!

[JAG]

How much self interest is clouding this issue?

Are chassis manufactuers pointing to the diesel engine saying, 'if that was in the back of our car we'd be as quick as the 908', while engine constructors, while stating they are at a power disadvantage, point to the chassis and say 'if you stuck our petrol motor in the back of a 908 we'd be within 1.5 seconds of a diesel powered 908' ?

Maybe this is why Henri is the only one to speak out?

[canam]

Apart from the manufacturers, Pescarolo and Courage, most other LMP teams would be worried to receive a 'non' on their next application for Le Mans It is too big of an event for them to risk not getting an entry.

That is probably the reason why they are silent.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

Well, we know from the end of the ALMS last year that the Creation and Zytek could be as quick as the R10. Could it be that the Pug is actually a lot quicker than the Audi in short circuit configuration? After all the Pugs seem to have been about four seconds quicker than the best of the petrol cars at both LeMans and Nurburg, so I think they must have turned the wick down quite a bit for the 24H. Maybe not enough as it turned out!

The Creation and Zytek raced @ 860 kg against the 925 kg R10.

[Hammerdown]

So they did. Slipped my mind. Seems perfectly fair to me! What would that be worth at LM? Anybody?

[kingkai]

Wouldn't the ACO take in consideration the diesels can't run a 24h race trouble free. If I'm right, all the finished diesels in the last two years at LM had bits and pieces changed under the bonnet. That is why henry's pesca could come to the top three this year. Undoing lapped laps when the diesels had to changes parts.
If the ACO look at the results they change little, when looking at performace they should have to change regs...
regarding LMP2 ALMS, I think that is another story. If LM let the porsches, Acuras in, changes are made defenatley, regarding the LMP2 laptimes 5% behind LMP1 like the ACO wants.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Who, praytell, is going to fund that? Yeah, Judd's just sitting on their hands...Audi and Peugeot aren't doing anything special, even within the diesel regulations. They're just throwing a ****load of money at it. No privateer can compete against that. And no direct injection, turbo gas engine is going to put out 800+ lb. ft of torque, especially not one on a budget. The rules need to recognize the differences between the factories and the privateers. This whole cycle is getting tiresome and we're being set up for doldrums in 2010. I'll bet by then Audi is done and so too Peugeot. And it will be up to privateers to somehow continue to sustain the series. I do wonder why they bother.

Mike, when you say the rules need to recognize the differences between factory and privateers, what do you advocate?

robert

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by kingkai

That is why henry's pesca could come to the top three this year. Undoing lapped laps when the diesels had to changes parts.
.

But still 11 laps down.......

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But still 11 laps down.......

When Audi got their first victory at Le Mans, the rest was 20 laps down.

[SebringMG]

Unfortunately i really doubt a privateer can really compete with factory run cars at LM especially due to the nature of current races. Audi has moved the goalposts so much through their increased reliability that they effectively drive the cars (R8 OR R10) at 100% throughout the race.

No one else can do that!!! That is why no one can compete! Not all to do with the outright pace of the diesels!! Could a big budget privateer compete ? Possibly but they will need a larger budget than any of them have atm i would suggest!!!!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by marcel82

When Audi got their first victory at Le Mans, the rest was 20 laps down.

True enough, they did annihilate the opposition in 2000.......

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Unfortunately i really doubt a privateer can really compete with factory run cars at LM especially due to the nature of current races. Audi has moved the goalposts so much through their increased reliability that they effectively drive the cars (R8 OR R10) at 100% throughout the race.

No one else can do that!!! That is why no one can compete! Not all to do with the outright pace of the diesels!! Could a big budget privateer compete ? Possibly but they will need a larger budget than any of them have atm i would suggest!!!!

exactly. this is the real discussion here. it's not diesel vs petrol, it's factory vs privateer. the fact that in Le Mans all factory P1's were diesel, and all privateers were petrol is just "coincidence".

and you can't really compare to ALMS, imo. yes, the Audi P1 diesels are losing to the Porsche P2 petrols, but the petrol P1's are even further down the field.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by marcel82

yes, the Audi P1 diesels are losing to the Porsche P2 petrols, but the petrol P1's are even further down the field.

Not for long! The powers that be have taken care of that.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by marcel82

exactly. this is the real discussion here. it's not diesel vs petrol, it's factory vs privateer. the fact that in Le Mans all factory P1's were diesel, and all privateers were petrol is just "coincidence".

Surely it is both. The differences are partly due to petrol/diesel and party due to factory/privateer. To attribute the differences solely to one or t'other is false, I believe.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by marcel82

exactly. this is the real discussion here. it's not diesel vs petrol, it's factory vs privateer. the fact that in Le Mans all factory P1's were diesel, and all privateers were petrol is just "coincidence".

But it is also reality - Its all very well having regulations that may or may not have some potential for factory petrol cars being competitive but that's no good if there aren't any!

The reality is that nobody can touch the Pugs on pace in the Le mans Series and the net result is that whilst they may be a technological tour de force they are also rendering the race as a whole somewhat less engaging than it could (and should) be.

[Bentley03]

When can we expect the ACO to announce 2008 amendments, in Brazil or just after sometime in November?

[Mal]

I am sure the techies will shout me down but I think the jury is still out on this.

Looking at the 2007 LMP2 works team qualifying times in ALMS against the 2006 best of the privateers there is a huge difference in pace:

Miller Motorsports park - 2006 LMP2 Fastest privateer (Lola) 2.30.043. The 2007 works Porsche qualifying time was 2.18.128 that is nearly 12 seconds faster!!

At Sebring 2006 fastest privateer (courage) 1.52.068. The 2007 Works Porsche qualifying time is was 1.46.046 - 6 seconds faster.

If a full works petrol LMP1 team could make the same strides over the privateers as this then they would be at least competitive with the Diesels

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

But it is also reality - Its all very well having regulations that may or may not have some potential for factory petrol cars being competitive but that's no good if there aren't any!

The reality is that nobody can touch the Pugs on pace in the Le mans Series and the net result is that whilst they may be a technological tour de force they are also rendering the race as a whole somewhat less engaging than it could (and should) be.

Yes....but why should the manufacturers want to race if a privateer with 1/10 the budget can expect the manufacturer to be brought down to his level every other year ? What incentive is there for them to develop there cars ?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am sure the techies will shout me down but I think the jury is still out on this.

Looking at the 2007 LMP2 works team qualifying times in ALMS against the 2006 best of the privateers there is a huge difference in pace:

Miller Motorsports park - 2006 LMP2 Fastest privateer (Lola) 2.30.043. The 2007 works Porsche qualifying time was 2.18.128 that is nearly 12 seconds faster!!

At Sebring 2006 fastest privateer (courage) 1.52.068. The 2007 Works Porsche qualifying time is was 1.46.046 - 6 seconds faster.

If a full works petrol LMP1 team could make the same strides over the privateers as this then they would be at least competitive with the Diesels

This is why we have to wait until some European P1's go over to the US.

They've been competitive in previous years, if they're not this year, I guess the factory P1's AND P2's have just moved the game forward.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am sure the techies will shout me down but I think the jury is still out on this.

Looking at the 2007 LMP2 works team qualifying times in ALMS against the 2006 best of the privateers there is a huge difference in pace:

Miller Motorsports park - 2006 LMP2 Fastest privateer (Lola) 2.30.043. The 2007 works Porsche qualifying time was 2.18.128 that is nearly 12 seconds faster!!

At Sebring 2006 fastest privateer (courage) 1.52.068. The 2007 Works Porsche qualifying time is was 1.46.046 - 6 seconds faster.

If a full works petrol LMP1 team could make the same strides over the privateers as this then they would be at least competitive with the Diesels

This is why we have to wait until some European P1's go over to the US.

They've been competitive in previous years, if they're not this year, I guess the factory P1's AND P2's have just moved the game forward.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am sure the techies will shout me down but I think the jury is still out on this.

Looking at the 2007 LMP2 works team qualifying times in ALMS against the 2006 best of the privateers there is a huge difference in pace:

Miller Motorsports park - 2006 LMP2 Fastest privateer (Lola) 2.30.043. The 2007 works Porsche qualifying time was 2.18.128 that is nearly 12 seconds faster!!

At Sebring 2006 fastest privateer (courage) 1.52.068. The 2007 Works Porsche qualifying time is was 1.46.046 - 6 seconds faster.

If a full works petrol LMP1 team could make the same strides over the privateers as this then they would be at least competitive with the Diesels

I think you have highlighted the uncomfortable truth that the resouces available to a works team or works blessed team will almost always outstrip those available to privateers.

Therefore they will always have more potential.

[JAG]

Hopefully Peugeot will find homes for a few 908's next year, same for Audi and eventually Acura and Porsche.

If Aston/Prodrive enter P1 they would hopefully supply 6+ customer cars, as they did with the DBR9/550.

[canam]

There are very few teams that could even begin thinking about affording to run a 908 (likely to be more expensive that a RS spyder) or a new prodrive LMP car (if they make one). The Aston programme has probably not even broken even yet--despite the high cost of the car. LMP cars are even more limited production so they will either be prohibitively expensive or not much different from what is already available.