Felipe Massa to retire from F1 after 2017 season

[S griffin]

No, if it hadn't been for Massa, the team wouldn't have scored as many as they did, as Lance inexperience showed too many times

[wnut]

I have no doubt about Massa's value, the value of any of his replacements is the problem. Without Massa's baseline Williams are going to be lost.

Williams don't seem to understand what a good driver is worth, and continue to stagnate without the input they need. Last year they only had one driver, Massa's input, next year they are about to try and do it with none. Whoops!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by wnut

Williams don't seem to understand what a good driver is worth, and continue to stagnate without the input they need. Last year they only had one driver, Massa's input, next year they are about to try and do it with none. Whoops!

I'd imagine that Renault, Force India, McLaren and Torro Rosso are all thinking they should comfortably beat Williams in 2018. Haas could beat them too. Sauber is possibly a step too far (they'll have a better engine than this year but they've got a rookie and Ericsson). Williams will surely be one of the tail enders with their likely driver lineup - a sad decline.

[S griffin]

People were saying the same thing about Williams for 2012 and what happened? They actually won a race. So don't rule out Williams yet

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by S griffin

People were saying the same thing about Williams for 2012 and what happened? They actually won a race. So don't rule out Williams yet

Also Jordan won the 2003 Brazilian GP when many though EJ didn't have any chance. And Fisico did it then. Truly can't rule out them...

[cds_uk]

Absolutely nothing to worry about, don't forget that Stroll answered all his critics with his performances this season......... apparently.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by cds_uk

Absolutely nothing to worry about, don't forget that Stroll answered all his critics with his performances this season......... apparently.

Lol, in his dreams!

[BSchneiderFan]

Stroll's comments were a bit hubristic but I think we have to separate his performance from those of the team overall. He was a rookie coming straight from Formula 3 (albeit not without, ahem, some preparation) and he ended up a handful of points off his vastly experienced team mate. Whether that's the level Williams should be operating at is a different matter. Not bigging the boy up, just trying to retain perspective.

[peebee2]

The reason the team got rid of Massa was because they knew they would have had more points than Force India this year if they had drivers of that level.

Of course they never really wanted Stroll either but $80m or so is a lot of dough.

[S griffin]

With a season under his belt, there's no reason why Stroll can't go better

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

With a season under his belt, there's no reason why Stroll can't go better

After his Daddy has spent over $100 million on private F1 testing on various GP circuits, I should bloomin' well think so!

It brings in to sharp focus that old saying about how to become a millionaire in F1 - start out as billionaire.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

After his Daddy has spent over $100 million on private F1 testing on various GP circuits, I should bloomin' well think so!

It brings in to sharp focus that old saying about how to become a millionaire in F1 - start out as billionaire.

I was going to say he already had a season under his belt in mileage terms before he started.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Is Stroll a pay driver?

[Akrapovic]

Why does Stroll get a hard time for getting a lot of testing? Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve used to test more than the rest of the grid combined back in the day. JV, like Stroll, had an entire seasons worth of testing under his belt before his first season.

Drivers now get almost zero testing compared to the old days, are held to a much higher standard, and often are only given a handful of early season races to deliver before they are dropping. Stroll is only doing what countless drivers did before the extreme testing limitations.

[cds_uk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Drivers now get almost zero testing compared to the old days

You pretty much answered it yourself, all that extra testing mileage thanks to dads very deep pockets, and at the end of it a hugely underwhelming debut season, but he answered his critics don't forget.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why does Stroll get a hard time for getting a lot of testing? Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve used to test more than the rest of the grid combined back in the day. JV, like Stroll, had an entire seasons worth of testing under his belt before his first season.

Drivers now get almost zero testing compared to the old days, are held to a much higher standard, and often are only given a handful of early season races to deliver before they are dropping. Stroll is only doing what countless drivers did before the extreme testing limitations.

Au contraire!

In the past, drivers tested the cars to try out new parts, systems or tyres for the benefit of the whole team. In Stroll's case, he is undergoing private tuition to improve his driving and his understanding of the circuits. And Williams are not permitted to test new parts on the old 2014 cars that are used in the sessions.

So, there is a huge difference between what those drivers were doing in the past, and what Stroll has been doing.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why does Stroll get a hard time for getting a lot of testing? Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve used to test more than the rest of the grid combined back in the day. JV, like Stroll, had an entire seasons worth of testing under his belt before his first season.

Drivers now get almost zero testing compared to the old days, are held to a much higher standard, and often are only given a handful of early season races to deliver before they are dropping. Stroll is only doing what countless drivers did before the extreme testing limitations.

Are you drunk?

In the old days they were developing the car. They wouldn’t give Stroll development parts anyway, waste of time and money

[Akrapovic]

Jacques Villeneuve did not spend 6 months of 1995 developing a car, dear lord.

Stroll is not a future World Champion, but he's no worse than any other pay driver. We live in a world where Yuji Ide once drove (term used loosely) an F1 car, and most of us lived through an era where the grid was separated by 5-10 seconds on any given weekend.

He isn't great, but he's not as bad as many who have gotten seats for driving worse. He's utilised what is available to him. Or is there an unwritten rule that once you have over X million available, then you go from "just another pay driver" to getting the level of criticism that Stroll gets?

He's not any good. He wouldn't be there without money. But he's also not that bad. Let's be realistic about how many pay drivers F1 has seen and what the standards of driving were not that long ago.

[chillibowl]

I'm both drunk and Canadian...those might be synonyms though!

Anyways mileage is mileage.

Imo, the nature of the development program is still secondary to the accumulation of experience/time in the car. Certainly from a stamina/fitness point of view.

Regardless that point may be irrelevant...Stroll still put in more mileage then the other current 'rookies' so fair play to use his testing as a performance differentiator.

But that said Stroll didn't embarrass himself either. Close to his team mate in points and a podium....pretty much we would look favourably on at any rookie who did that.

One post race cool down lap brain fade though.

Also not sure what driving pairing for Williams the would have been able to make up the 100 point difference to Force India.

But if McLaren and Renault improve next year, the Williams driver pairing may look more suspect/deserving of blame.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by cds_uk

You pretty much answered it yourself, all that extra testing mileage thanks to dads very deep pockets, and at the end of it a hugely underwhelming debut season, but he answered his critics don't forget.

Agreed, pedestrian would seem to be an apt description.

Massa out qualified Stroll 17 - 2.

Average qualifying position:

Massa 10.68
Stroll 14.9

Result: Fire Massa.

(tf from Hungarian GP thread)

[RWill2073]

To be fair, from the second half on, I thought he did... Okay. The wet qualifying performance was an eye opener, as I've always considered the wet to be where the better drivers shined. So that was shocking.

But all the additional benefits he gets due to his money definitely makes it harder to give him credit. Compared to others he did get extra test time, unlike villenueve, who was driving at a time where others had the same opportunities for testing, even if they didn't get as much.

I still think of stroll as a test case in nature vs nurture. How much of a skill like racing in f1 can be taught as opposed to these guys just having natural born talent? Can it really be that so many of the best drivers in the world just so happened to come from money? How can stroll, who is clearly not the most talented driver on the grid, be within tenths or hundredths of a second of the best on the grid?

[S griffin]

The second half of the season showed what Stroll can do. And considering his inexperience, he did very well to get a podium, considering it was a street circuit, where others were making mistakes, yet he kept it together

[peebee2]

Eh? If anything he was at his worst at the end of the season. The fluky podium wasn’t in the second half of the season. Though I was very impressed with the Monza qualifying.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Eh? If anything he was at his worst at the end of the season.

By what metric? He had more points finishes in the second half of the season, and from Monza onwards he beat Massa 4 out of the 7 times both cars finished.

People are acting like Williams are declaring Stroll the next Schumacher and that Massa was sacked unfairly. The reality here is Stroll is a pay driver who hasn't done any worse than any other pay driver. Massa meanwhile was on the road to retirement and was brought back for a year due to Bottas leaving. He hasn't been sacked unfairly by the cruel Williams team. He hasn't had his future career cut short. He's moving on.

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I still think of stroll as a test case in nature vs nurture. How much of a skill like racing in f1 can be taught as opposed to these guys just having natural born talent? Can it really be that so many of the best drivers in the world just so happened to come from money? How can stroll, who is clearly not the most talented driver on the grid, be within tenths or hundredths of a second of the best on the grid?

As with any sport, training is important. The difference between motorsport and football is you can't go and practice motorsport on a Sunday with your mates, especially as an amateur.

However the few tenths and hundredths that Stroll is behind on the grid is the difference between am ok driver and a good driver.

He also did pretty well in F3, and raced for Ganassi at Daytona. It's not like he's terrible. He's just not that good. He's...a pay driver. Just like every other pay driver before him, and many that will cover after him. Just because his money came in the form of his father rather than a sticker, doesn't really change that.

Edit: If you want to be harsh - Stroll paid the team a massive amount of money and scored only a handful of points less than a driver who is paid for his services. In terms of payment versus reward, Stroll was a much much better deal.

[wnut]

Massa would have won Baku - Paddy Lowe.


https://www.speedcafe.com/2017/12/15...assa-won-baku/


and


'Lowe said Massa was a “fantastic” driver to work and has been a “tremendous support” to Stroll.'


Basically, I would say, good luck to Wiliams without Massa next year if you don't find a serious F1 candidate, and the signs don't appear at all encouraging.