[Official] Singapore Grand Prix - Round 15 of 21 - Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Alternately Vettel on a faster tyre shouldn’t have been 10 seconds ahead of Bottas.

Ferrari AND Vettel didn’t do a good enough job this weekend

Vettel had to make the tyre last longer than even Pirelli thought it would last. He wasn't further ahead because he had to slow down so as not to destroy the tyre and need another pit stop. Once Ferrari made the gamble to put him on that and he ended up in third, the least damaging thing he could've done was to slow right down to avoid another stop. The only other option was to take all the life out of the tyre trying to pass the cars in front, only to make a pit stop and end up behind anyway. No matter what Vettel did at that point, third was going to be the best result, and the safest way of achieving that is to slow down, avoid other cars and avoid the next pit stop.

Bottas had the same tyres available to him. If Vettel had the ability to be further up the road due to a faster tyre, then everybody else also had that ability. Nobody else was in that situation because it was a crap strategy. Bottas was a good minute behind Lewis - so even if you ignore Vettel, you have to be asking why Bottas was so far back. This is exactly the situation where he should be taking points from Ferrari - although they do a good job of that themselves.

Vettel didn't do a good job, but nobody could've done anything different after that gamble failed.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Vettel did everything he could, grabbing second from Verstappen just before the SC and staying put behind Hamilton on the first stint. Literally nothing else he could have done this race after the dice were rolled at his first pitstop.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Vettel did everything he could, grabbing second from Verstappen just before the SC and staying put behind Hamilton on the first stint. Literally nothing else he could have done this race after the dice were rolled at his first pitstop.

Really? Could have won the race. He didn’t do the job in qualifying, didn’t make a good enough start and didn’t have the pace after the pit stop.

Do you ever have the ability to blame Vettel?

[Akrapovic]

Vettel wasn't good. There's no other way of looking at it. But expecting him to magic up a good result on that strategy is just fantasy. He probably wouldn't have won even with a perfect strategy as Lewis was fantastic all weekend, but you can't just change how the tyres work. Nobody else tried to go fast on those tyres for that length of time for a good reason - it can't be done. Once it was clear the gamble didn't work it became damage control and slow down to make the tyres last so they wouldn't need another stop.

[Adam43]

Below par performance during the weekend from Vettel and poor strategy to try and get him out of it.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Vettel wasn't good. There's no other way of looking at it. But expecting him to magic up a good result on that strategy is just fantasy. He probably wouldn't have won even with a perfect strategy as Lewis was fantastic all weekend, but you can't just change how the tyres work. Nobody else tried to go fast on those tyres for that length of time for a good reason - it can't be done. Once it was clear the gamble didn't work it became damage control and slow down to make the tyres last so they wouldn't need another stop.

Well you can. Drivers and teams ave tyre choice before the weekend. They messed up by not bringing enough softs, then Vettel didn’t produce during Q2 on the Ultras. Had he done that, then things could well have been different, it would have given them flexibility on strategy.

Vettel AND ferrari threw this race away, just linke Monza...probably several weeks before the race, purely because of tyre selection

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well not a great race and it throws up many questions as to why the second drivers were so far off the number 1 driver in the top teams and how the massive gap to the midfield cars has grown so large

Something other than the Hamilton and Vettel being significantly better than Räikkönen and Bottas and the top three teams building better cars due to the talents and resources at their disposal?

[Akrapovic]

Well, Monza was all the drivers. Vettel screwed up and Kimi couldn't pass when he had to.

But Singapore, well other than a less than optimal qualifying, Vettel wasn't that bad. Certainly wasn't a Monza or Germany performance from him. But saying he should've been faster on those tyres kinda ignores what the tyres were capable of. If Ferrari didn't have enough tyres to make a proper strategy work, then that again points to a team issue rather than driver. If they managed to box themselves into a situation where the strategy meant Vettel HAD to have a clear road all weekend, then that's just stupid planning. Even if Vettel started from pole, it still required a performance advantage over Lewis. And if your only available strategy requires a specific set of events, during a race weekend that traditionally has random safety cars, then you're gonna have a bad time.

As it stood in the race, Vettel did all he could with the tyres he had available. You can't drive faster because you'll destroy the tyres. The only way that was going to work is if he was ahead of Lewis and could gap him, but Lewis was in another league. So realistically, third was all anyone was going to get with those tyres. Vettel wasn't good, but the biggest problem in that race was the Ferrari strategy.

And relating to my original point - if Bottas struggles to beat Vettel, even after Ferrari have made another massive arse of it all, then I'd be questioning what Bottas is doing. I'm normally more forgiving to drivers, but 50 seconds off of Lewis and off the podium, not even close to an underperforming Ferrari really isn't good enough...especially when Toto is moaning about not having enough seats.

[ascarracinguk]

You seem to ignore that the ultras are just under a second faster than the softs. Not on,y did Vettel not pass max, he didn’t even get close on a superior tyre. That and the choice to bring tyres to a particular circuit is down to driver and team.

Seems like everyone is blaming ferrari for Vettels poor performances,,,,think people are forgetting it’s a team sport. Sure ferrari didn’t create a great strategy for Vettel today. But Vettel put himself in that position through a poor qualifying and less than stellar first stint, in a car which should be better around Singapore

[djinvicta]

[QUOTE=.


And relating to my original point - if Bottas struggles to beat Vettel, even after Ferrari have made another massive arse of it all, then I'd be questioning what Bottas is doing. I'm normally more forgiving to drivers, but 50 seconds off of Lewis and off the podium, not even close to an underperforming Ferrari really isn't good enough...especially when Toto is moaning about not having enough seats.[/QUOTE]

Yes..good point.. Chuck Bottas out and put Ocon in that seat for 2019...

And I still say..ban Perez, he lost his temper twice today and used his race car as a weapon....If Stroll has sense he will out him...problem being he brings Force India sponsorship..

[Akrapovic]

I'm not ignoring the speed of the tyres (I actually referenced the speed of them, that's the opposite of ignoring them, just FYI), I'm saying that if you extract that speed then you drastically reduce the lifespan, and therefore will need another pit stop. So sure, he could take the life out of the tyres and attack Max...and then need a pit stop and finish behind him anyway. So what exactly have you achieved at that point? Risked your car against Mad Max, knowing you'll drop behind anyway? Doesn't sound like a terribly good strategy.

Unless you have a way that you can make the tyre last and and be fast - in which case you should let Pirelli know about it, because as they said during the race, the tyre could not do the length of stint Ferrari asked it to do at speed. So if the tyre manufacturer is saying that, I don't know what else can really be done.

I'm not blaming Ferrari for Vettel's poor performance at all. I think you'll find I said he wasn't very good at all. I'm saying that if your strategy only works in one very specific way, and asks the tyres to do things that the tyre manufacturer says cannot be done, then maybe your strategy isn't very good. And if your strategy can't possibly cope with starting third on the grid, then that's even worse. Mercedes can cope when Lewis gets a grid drop, but apparently, if Vettel doesn't get pole then the world ends at Ferrari and it's unrecoverable. Interesting the different perspectives the teams have. And the reason this is a talking point is because it's a historical trait that Ferrari have - just ask Fernando what he thinks of the back of Petrovs car and how good that strategy was.

So once again, just to be clear, Vettel wasn't good. But the Ferrari strategy was diabolically bad and relied on Vettel getting more out of a tyre than Pirelli said was possible. That's it.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Then how was Vettel not good, if he got the best out of a bad situation?

[midnight_lurker]

Sorry to go slightly of topic, but I couldn't find a thread about it.

Am I the only one who got frustrated with the F1 app?

It may well be that I am too stupid to use the new live timing in the app, but I couldn't find half the info I normally get from the timing app.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Then how was Vettel not good, if he got the best out of a bad situation?

Should've been closer to Lewis before the stop. Should've nailed the in and out laps more so not to fall to Max. Should've nailed qualifying but didn't. He just didn't have the measure of Lewis at any point during the weekend, and if you're fighting for a title I'd say that comes under "not good". Not as bad as Ferrari as a whole, but his performance wasn't there all weekend.

With a proper strategy he'd have possibly finished second, and could've potentially fought for the win, but I suspect Lewis had a little more in reserve ready for if Vettel was the one behind.

Also worth noting that Ferrari misheard the Mercedes radio call. Lewis said "there's more left in these tyres.". Ferrari then got onto the radio and told Vettel "Lewis said there's no more left in these tyres", to which Vettel replied, "I don't believe him". So Vettel had worked it out, even if the pit wall got it wrong. Again, it just doesn't paint Ferrari in a great light. These sort of things all add up.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Should've been closer to Lewis before the stop. Should've nailed the in and out laps more so not to fall to Max. Should've nailed qualifying but didn't. He just didn't have the measure of Lewis at any point during the weekend, and if you're fighting for a title I'd say that comes under "not good". .

You gotta have the car to do it though. I'll grant that should have done better in qualifying but rectified that situation on the first lap. When you have the best car and don't win, then you're not good. Otherwise, you gotta get the max points you can.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

You gotta have the car to do it though. I'll grant that should have done better in qualifying but rectified that situation on the first lap. When you have the best car and don't win, then you're not good. Otherwise, you gotta get the max points you can.

Last time I checked the Ferrari was better than the red bull, and at least a match for Mercedes if not quicker on outright pace. Just admit it, Vettel ballsed up

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Last time I checked the Ferrari was better than the red bull, and at least a match for Mercedes if not quicker on outright pace. Just admit it, Vettel ballsed up

Both Ferrari and Vettel ballsed it up.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Both Ferrari and Vettel ballsed it up.

Agreed. But sprinkles doesn’t seem to have the ability to admit the latter

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Ferrari screwed up the strategy, Vettel did everything right at the start.

[crmalcolm]

As raised earlier on why Hamilton thought the team had done wrong, but in hindsight not so:

Lewis Hamilton after Q3: "others had opted for more hypersofts than we had. […] I was definitely a little bit concerned. And when we did run hypersofts in Q2, everyone else had the advantage that they’d already done more running on them. But on my first lap in Q3 I was definitely feeling something special as it unravelled. We were able to pull together everything we had learned in practice, all the bits of the puzzle.

Prior to Q - it looked like Mercedes' low number of hypers might prove a disadvantage. But once the Q lap and the race arrived, it became clear Mercedes had made a better call than Ferrari on the choice of tyres. They had plenty of miles on compounds they wanted to use in the race, and had a greater understanding of what these could deliver for them than Ferrari had.

A great example today of how, what you do in FP can mean more than just reliability and part testing, but can also be a huge factor in preparing for the race. Mercedes got that right this weekend, Ferrari didn't.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Ferrari screwed up the strategy, Vettel did everything right at the start.

Vettel and ferrari screwed up thier tyre choice for Singapore weeks ago, Vettel screwed up Q2, and again Q3, forcing Ferrari to go down an inferior tyre strategy, Vettel screwed up the first stint, didn’t make his tyres last long enough forcing Ferrari to put him on that inferior strategy. They both screwed up....

...not sure why you can’t admit Vettel has a large part in this

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Agreed. But sprinkles doesn’t seem to have the ability to admit the latter

In fairness he did get it right at the start. However, he must have been involved in devising the strategy, so from that perspective it was a balls up on his part.

[djinvicta]

I am just amazed there is not a thread/talk about Perez who blatantly put his teammate in the wall..(you could see the wheel move as he did it).
Then lost his cool with Sirotkin with a side swipe.
Absolute diabolical racing in any Formula except Bangers...
What are we bringing youngsters into racing for with actions like this?

[Adam43]

The second Perez incident was truly awful. He said he just called the door early

The Ocon crash. I haven’t studied it, but I think he just didn’t see or give him room. He was also apologised after. You say the wheel moved, was it to hit his teammate or just an oversteer correction?

According to an Autosport headline the team have banned them racing for the rest of the season.

[Aysedasi]

I believe he deliberately gave Ocon no room and there was contact, as I recall. I don't believe for a moment the tosh about not knowing he was there. If he didn't know, someone needs to point out to him that those weird little appendages attached to his car are called mirrors.... If Stroll is FI bound (which I guess is obvious), the thought that Perez will stay there while Ocon scratches around for a drive shows just how much money talks to the detriment of the sport....