Why do we have to limit Supercars to V8s only?

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

Right so the FIA can go, even though our WRCars are not Group A anymore (just like Blueprint) if you don't build a Turbo AWD road car you can bugger off!

Citroen, Skoda etc. you can all go home, this is a Mitsubishi Subaru battle only.

This is the same thing as the local touring car championship here is it not?

The World Rally Championship has an equivalent set of basic requirements – car must be 2L turbo, AWD, and there is a range of car overall length specified as well.

The move from Group A to WRC regs (eliminating the requirement to base the car on a 2L turbo AWD road car) was consistent with touring cars moving away from Group A.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Read the first article again, it clearly states that there will be two classes competing, but nowhere does it say that the 2-litre cars will not be outright competitors. It was envisaged that the two classes would compete equally and the rules could be adjusted to provide parity.

Yes it does state that two classes would be competing. Like I said, nowhere does it state that the 2L cars WILL be competing for outright honours, the BMW guy obviously wanted his cars to be outright competitors but stated that under those rules, they wouldn't be. One would logically presume that Class B was meant to be a sub class, this would be backed up by what subsequently happend with the BMW's competing in the early days.

[lookleft]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

Racer69 is right...the V8 Supercar website history page includes ATCC winners so there could be a case for other manufacturers to run but I still think it should be cars of similar type. Here in NZ we have NZV8's and a new Production Car class which is closer to the old touring car type class including the Subaru's etc. which perhaps could be the answer. I was in the northern hemisphere when ATCC disappeared and V8 Supercars appeared in it's place. Sorry - I thought it was it's own clever marketing ploy thing catering to our tribal tastes and aural pleasures. My mistake. I'm still not interested in seeing a succession of 2 litre hair dryers lunching motors at the likes of Bathurst and Sandown when put to the test. I am soooo last century

I am pretty sure Perkins "owns" the title "ATCC" and leases it back to V8SCA - someone will know the terms. It is quite possible, if somewhat unlikely, that Perkins could lease it to the Aussie Cars promoters to get Jack a ATCC title!

The "public loss" of the title ATCC is just a part of the V8SCA scheme to convince the public that they are the holy grail of motorsport and all good stems from them. Like their often clouded view of history they don't want people thinking in terms of ATCC, they want people to think V8Supercar Champion. The problem is you can't buy history...

While you may not like the idea of seeing "2 litre hair dryers lunching motors at the likes of Bathurst and Sandown" you also have to acknowledge that the history and romance of those races is tarnished somewhat when the category organizers cannot supply a full field. All this nonsense about safety and track density is a smokescreen designed sway public opinion. If it were not for certain clauses written into license agreements we would still see 36+ cars safely racing. This is nothing more than a closed boys club. You need look no further than WPS to understand how these games are played behind closed doors. It does not matter what races on the track, it matters who controls it.

The insidious relationship between V8SCA, key owners and the two manufacturers is not conducive to long term growth. You can be sure that the business people behind the scenes understand what is happening, we have 2 manufacturers propping up the series yet for marketing and technical reasons CANNOT allow other car makers to join and lessen the financial impacts. The requirement for large, V8 cars is constantly declining, has been for years - the unfortunate fact for these manufacturers is that they cannot compete, at a local level, with the small to mid size competition from the Asian makers. If you spend some time absorbing the segmentation data from the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries you will see that there is a 31% drop in large car sales this year! It is very hard for a business to operate with that kind of downturn. Sure, the government will prop them up at the end of the year by buying "cars" but the raw figures are undeniable.

Whilst your statements are those of a biased V8 supporter (nothing wrong with that) they do encapsulate the issue for Ford and Holden. At the moment they have a very nice little traveling show promoting their brand more than their product. Like it or not these two companies, at some point, will consign large V8 cars to the niche market they belong and pay more attention to the vehicles that are absorbing the bulk of the decline. At that point the "V8 hero car" syndrome becomes less marketable and we will see a quantum shift in strategy. I don't think you are going to like it!

Motorsport has always been an integral component in selling cars, when it is worthwhile to Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda or whoever to join a big enough cheque will be written and the so-called V8SC masters will rollover quicker than you can say "boo". Until that day, enjoy your V8's!

[Peter Nightingale]

[ I think you will find " ATCC" belongs to C.A.M.S not PERKINS.....

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

Class B was meant to be a sub class, this would be backed up by what subsequently happend with the BMW's competing in the early days.

What happened was different from the first plan.

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

I think you will find " ATCC" belongs to C.A.M.S not PERKINS.....

I agree – LP may have registered the ATCC as a trademark/copyright/business name but I doubt he would be able to prevent CAMS from using it because it pre-dated his “acquisition” of it.

The future of V8SC seems to me to be fairly secure in the short to medium term. While the local big car sales are falling don’t forget the current products are coming to the end of their life and new generation models will be here soon. The Nascars don’t seem to be suffering despite US car sales being unprofitable (locals still make a $$).

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

Yes it does state that two classes would be competing. Like I said, nowhere does it state that the 2L cars WILL be competing for outright honours, the BMW guy obviously wanted his cars to be outright competitors but stated that under those rules, they wouldn't be. One would logically presume that Class B was meant to be a sub class, this would be backed up by what subsequently happend with the BMW's competing in the early days.

The article mentions the liklihood of the 2 litre Class B being replaced by the rumoured 2.5ltr FIA regulations (ironically the FIA ended up adopting both, but not until 1995), indicating they wanted more makes fighting for victory.

Why would the headline read 'V8s vs Brits' if one wasn't meant to be competitive?

[WebberForWDC]

Why didn't anyone put their bloody thinking caps on and decide to run...

6 cyl large sedans!

Wow, the local Falcons and Commdores CAN be promoted, Mitsubishi and Toyota Australia can run too with suitable FWD/RWD parity and if you drop the Australian only requirement, the rule makers could have found in sheer amazement that BMW and Nissan can compete too!

And it's not like the supporters can whinge about a lack of tradition by example of XU1, Charger etc.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by racer69

The article mentions the liklihood of the 2 litre Class B being replaced by the rumoured 2.5ltr FIA regulations (ironically the FIA ended up adopting both, but not until 1995), indicating they wanted more makes fighting for victory.

Why would the headline read 'V8s vs Brits' if one wasn't meant to be competitive?

I would assume that this title was from a journo using his 'licence'.

Even though the large car class is on the decline, that not necessarily going to mean Ford/Holden will drop support for the V8's. V8Supercars is a marketing platform for these manufacturers, NOT just Falcon or Commodore.


Lookleft, you mentioned the insidious nature of the V8's not being conductive to long term growth, one only has to look at the state of V8SC's to realise this isn't correct. Its now in its 16th year of operation and is looking extremely healthy, I don't think any of the previous incarnations of the 'ATCC' has lasted as long ?

One of the ideas behind it is to make younger people Ford or Holden fans, these are future car purchasers, they may not even buy a FalCom but its likely they will buy one of the other models from there 'chosen' brand.
As long as FalComs are available, they will be the hero cars in the ATCC, and it doesn't matter whats under the bonnet or how closely it resembles the showroom version as long as it looks like one.

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by aj_308

Boy this one gets around a bit.

I think the fans kind of voted with their feet on this, in case you didn't notice.

Short note to people who dont like the V8's:

Dont go.

Go and watch some other catagory you do like, then it will gain popularity and might even get bigger.

Thanks for that advice. Thats what I've been doing for the last 10 years. I watch the V8s and I enjoy the series very much. The racing is great. But my real love is for production based racing (ok I also do like sports sedans and GTs ) that allow rotaries to compete, so that is what I attend - state championships where I can see these kinds of races.

Some of the posts in threads like this answer the question very plainly. Many Australians view non-v8 holdens or fords as whining hair dryers. The market just doesn't seem to be there for anything else.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

Thanks for that advice. Thats what I've been doing for the last 10 years. I watch the V8s and I enjoy the series very much. The racing is great. But my real love is for production based racing (ok I also do like sports sedans and GTs ) that allow rotaries to compete, so that is what I attend - state championships where I can see these kinds of races.

Some of the posts in threads like this answer the question very plainly. Many Australians view non-v8 holdens or fords as whining hair dryers. The market just doesn't seem to be there for anything else.

WRONG. TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THE MARKET..........

[Robert Ryan]

WRONG. TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THE MARKET

What you drive? or what is raced and attracts a lot of attention?. Rotaries , turbo 4's and sixes have a niche market in Drag Racing. Pretty hard to think of where else Rotaries , turbo 4's and sixes , have much impact.

[kmsport]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Rotaries , turbo 4's and sixes have a niche market in Drag Racing. Pretty hard to think of where else Rotaries , turbo 4's and sixes , have much impact.

Please...yawn, zzzzzzzzz

[Falcadore]

After have done some research on the subject, the niche market was created specifically because those in the four/rotary set view circuit racing... all circuit racing... as a V8 only thing.

To be honest it's hard to fault their thinking.

What do we do when we disenfranchise such a huge sector? What can we do? It will require some leadership from CAMS, but the status quo works just fine for them, so why bother?

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

After have done some research on the subject, the niche market was created specifically because those in the four/rotary set view circuit racing... all circuit racing... as a V8 only thing.

To be honest it's hard to fault their thinking.

What do we do when we disenfranchise such a huge sector? What can we do? It will require some leadership from CAMS, but the status quo works just fine for them, so why bother?

I don't understand. Are you saying that the vast majority of enthusiasts of non-v8s are only into drag racing?

[Robert Ryan]

I don't understand. Are you saying that the vast majority of enthusiasts of non-v8s are only into drag racing?

There are a lot of Non-V8 drivers in Club Racing. But as a major attraction? Drag Racing is it with the Jamberoo.

[Robert Ryan]

Please...yawn, zzzzzzzzz

Glad you agree. There not bad as drag vehicles though, lot less impressive on a roadcircuit.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

I don't understand. Are you saying that the vast majority of enthusiasts of non-v8s are only into drag racing?

No, you said that. Drifting for example is another non-circuit motorsport activity. Historic racing sprints aren't held on circuits. Rallying. Hillclimbs.

And I never said my research was comprehensive. I basically asked a bunch of car fans (from a 4/rotor group) what they thought of circuit racing, and if they did not like, why?

Consensus was that circuit racing was dominated by pro-V8 people and that they were disinterested in circuit racing because it was only V8s and that they felt the cars they liked could not get a gig in circuit racing.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

Right so the FIA can go, even though our WRCars are not Group A anymore (just like Blueprint) if you don't build a Turbo AWD road car you can bugger off!

Citroen, Skoda etc. you can all go home, this is a Mitsubishi Subaru battle only.

This is the same thing as the local touring car championship here is it not?

The construction of blueprint spec 380s and Aurions is readily do-able so why should they be locked out?

The ARC regs are for Group N, not WRC or Group A (which as a rally class disappeared in the mid-90s). Under WRC Peugeot, Citroen, Skoda, Mistubishi, Ford and Subaru presently have cars. Group N however is specifically production based category aimed at cost containment for smaller teams and younger drivers who do not have manufactuerer support to race for the PWRC. The P standing for Production. Presently only the Suabru Impreza, the Mitsubishi Lancer and its Proton Wira knock-off are eligible. Because the PWRC is a support category effectively, the manufacturers have no real interest so it does not matter what cars they drive.

And yet, Toyota, using a non-Group N eligible car leads the ARC. That's because last year for the ARC they began Group N+ which is parity based regs derived from the Group N concept, so Neal Bates chucked some Celica GT-4 mechnicals under a Corolla Sportivo and we're away. And now Ford have built their exceedingly strange RWD Focus RS to Group N+ for Michael Guest. Nobody understands their logic, but the car exists and they're having a go.

So your example is a little flawed.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

What do we do when we disenfranchise such a huge sector? What can we do? It will require some leadership from CAMS, but the status quo works just fine for them, so why bother?

Got to agree Falcadore !

Effectively it is poltical correctness, you can have V8s or make your own arrangements - & a big section of car enthusiasts have turned their back on circuit racing.

The current leaders of the sport are not held to account.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Got to agree Falcadore !

Effectively it is poltical correctness, you can have V8s or make your own arrangements - & a big section of car enthusiasts have turned their back on circuit racing.

The current leaders of the sport are not held to account.

Don't the car manufacturers OWN C.A.M.S. .? anybody would think so!!!!!!

[mctshirt]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Effectively it is poltical correctness, you can have V8s or make your own arrangements - & a big section of car enthusiasts have turned their back on circuit racing.

Making your own arrangements may well be the only way and handled correctly by enthusuastic people would more than likely be enormously successful.

MANZ the NZ equilavent of CAMS has a long history of sitting on it's hands while private promoters had the most success like 1950's International Grand Prixs, Bay Park, wellington Street races,etc. MANZ of course got off their hands long enough to make life difficult in some cases.

BTW Group N rally cars lost me as a fan here in NZ...I used to watch the Group A cars thunder through marvelling at the speed as drivers balanced on the edge...I ventured out to watch the Group N cars last year and was stunned by the banality of it all, not enough noise, not enough speed, not enough spectacle...far too ordinary for my taste. Instead of taming a beast, drivers seemed to be merely wringing the living daylights out of their cars.

[WebberForWDC]

Still why were 6cyl Large Sedan (Falcon, Commodore, BMW, Skyline sedan later FWD/RWD parity for Mitsubishi & Toyota possibly) regulations not proposed!!!

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

Group N rally cars lost me as a fan here in NZ...I used to watch the Group A cars thunder through marvelling at the speed as drivers balanced on the edge...I ventured out to watch the Group N cars last year and was stunned by the banality of it all, not enough noise, not enough speed, not enough spectacle...far too ordinary for my taste. Instead of taming a beast, drivers seemed to be merely wringing the living daylights out of their cars.

I feel the same way, standing in the forest watching the Group A cars was so exciting, Group N cars are rather dull.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

Still why were 6cyl Large Sedan (Falcon, Commodore, BMW, Skyline sedan later FWD/RWD parity for Mitsubishi & Toyota possibly) regulations not proposed!!!

A lot of people would see it as providing far less of a spectacle.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Got to agree Falcadore !

Effectively it is poltical correctness, you can have V8s or make your own arrangements - & a big section of car enthusiasts have turned their back on circuit racing.

The current leaders of the sport are not held to account.

This is so true, I would venture so far as to say that the majority of car enthusiasts are not particularly interested in circuit racing. CAMS have the responsibilty for this disaster, but they don't even seem to care.