Great Champions

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Jukebox
...i really can't understand why would anyone dig so low as to prove a point. It's an old story Paul. What had happened in the past can't be rectified if he wanted to, people do change you know.

We're talking about "Great Champions" here. In this context, history matters.

And you've missed my point, as EERO has shown. It's not about the acts, as unsporting as they were. Senna, when he ran Prost off the road, admitted it. He took responsibility. Has TGF? (After 1997 he had it thrust upon him by the FIA, but he never faced the public to clarify, apologise, anything.)

Anyone who's not up there while it happened wouldn't know how he felt at that time, everyone can say what they what but when it comes to the moment of truth then only they will understand.

So we aren't allowed to judge his actions because we can't see into his heart? What is it they say the road to hell is paved with?

[Red]

Originally posted by paul-collins
And you've missed my point, as EERO has shown. It's not about the acts, as unsporting as they were. Senna, when he ran Prost off the road, admitted it. He took responsibility. Has TGF? (After 1997 he had it thrust upon him by the FIA, but he never faced the public to clarify, apologise, anything.)

Actually you're wrong (partly) in both cases. Senna indeed admited. Several weeks later and Schumacher faced the public and apologized.

[Legend]

Once upon the time far from here in a remote land, in a distant time, there was an old man taking the trip to the nearest town from his village to buy some merchandise . With him went his young son and of course his donkey. There was a long way to go. The old man was sitting on the donkey and the boy was walking in front, pulling the animal behind him. A group of people so them and said: Look what a father! How can he sit there on the donkey where his poor boy must walk all the way. What a cruel man he is!
The old man and his son heard what those people said, so the boy started ridding and the old man was pulling from then on.
They passed the next village and some farmers noticed their approach. They gathered and started shouting: Is there any justice in this world! Behold, that lazy young man is ridding the donkey while
his old man must walk!!!
Now they had to try something new to avoid people’s reactions, so they both decided to ride on the back of the donkey.
The next group of people so them and started talking how cruel and heartless some could be as in the heat of summer the poor animal should not suffer so much.
This time they decided to ease the heart of those angry croweds and the old man and his son started to lift the donkey on their shoulders and started to carrying the animal instead.
When they were going through the next village all people gathered to see an amusing scene being unfold. People started laughing and pointing fingers at them: Look, have you ever seen anything like this before! Wow they look stupid! Usually a donkey is used to give ride to man, but look!!!
Now as you can imagine the old man and his son were confused. So they decided to try the next option: No one should ride or carry anything. The animal walked, so did the old man and his son.
Some other people spotted them as they were near the town. People said: look how stupid those guys are? You have a donkey and you walk all the way on foot!!!


I hope you like my stories said the Troll to the Jackass!!!

[Jordi]

MTV's Jackass... great show.

By the way, this, I think, was a thread to talk about Great Champions, and I don't see any Great Champion in your last post, Legend.

[Legend]

The fact is, that a lot of geniuses have had their controversial way of living in and out of their field. In an another thread I asked a rhetorical question of who was the greatest composer among classical virtuosi like Bach, Beethoven or Mozart. I think in a matter of personality Mozart was for sure not the greatest person you would meet on personal base. He could appear like a spoiled person, without sympathy and in position of a foul language. But he ranks just there among the greatest musician and composers of all time in a degree that his name is synonymous with the music it self.

Napoleon Bonaparte was a person with a great egoistic flavour. He said: “One man makes history not millions, which millions (he referred to those millions Frenchmen falling under the Napoleonic wars) can ever be compared to me?” This is a total cynical approach. But who can deny his place in history? No one! For better or worse he is one of the greatest men in the history of mankind.

Brazil as we know became world championship last month. In the knockout stages of the WC Belgium scored a perfect clean goal on a header by Marc Wilmots against Brazil which the referee overruled. Later the same Brazilian team went on to clinch their fifth world cup title. As I remember there are not many people being unhappy by the fact that Brazil is world champion, as it would be easy to under-act their achievement by the example I have just stated above. But the fact is that they are five times world champions!

For me Maradona is the greatest footballer ever, even though he had his moments of shame. He have scored on of the most controversial goals in the history of football (European of course) the so-called “ HAND OF GOD GOAL” against England in Mexico 1986 ¼ finale. Will he be remembered for that? Yes he will, but…… After that goal he went to score the greatest goal in WC history! He single-handed brought WC to Argentina. Later he went to Italy and played for FC Napoli. Thanks to the magic of Diego Napoli went to the top, not only in Italy, but at the European stage as well.
He took on an Italian team and lifted their level to the very top of the game. (This remind me of another person, but right now I can not recall who it is, Italian team.... top of the game..... hmmmm.....darn)

So who is the great champion? What are the criteria for being a great champ?
I think apart from some unfortunate episodes, which Schumacher can not be blamed for all eternity, he is a great champion.
Cheers guys

I like Jackass too on MTV. Those guys are not as brightest as they come, but they have balls of steel!!!!!

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Jordi
By the way, this, I think, was a thread to talk about Great Champions...

Don't be silly.

Anyway. For you Jordi, and a few others, in a vain attempt to return to sanity.

What about Lauda? Three times world champ. Loved some of his drives and he has one of the best 'stories' attached to him (1976), but how does he figure in this thread that matches performance and character?

For me, Stewart was the man before him, Prost the man after him. Others came and went. Peterson, Andretti, Emmo, Piquet, Villeneuve...

Did these people distract from Lauda, or show more champion-esque status...

[Amaroo Park]

What about Frank Williams and Patrick Head's favorite driver, Alan Jones. There was a story that David Coultard when he was at Williams was getting told by Williams and Head to drive more like Alan and thought they mean't Alain Prost. No they mean't Alan Jones

[Adam43]

I have heard that Head and Williams are still looking for a driver like Jones!

This I find slightly odd, but it was a bit before my time. I have only seen the ex-driver since. Some of his battles, most notable with Villeneuve, were great.

It seems Patrick and Frank have always liked drivers who went for it.

[Hamness]

Would have posted a reply much earlier but have spent ages reading Leg Ends ramblings. I started this thread off by saying that whilst I cannot argue against TGF's c.v. which on paper puts up amongst the really greats of F1, I personally, cannot accept that. He appeared at a time where opposition both in terms of cars & drivers was stitled, even though he had to endure a couple of barren Ferrari years whilst they got their act together. Yes, I know that all his supporters will through their brickbats at me & it is one of those arguments that will rage long after I have departed this planet and be headed for one in Leg Ends direction, but, and I hope it happens before my faculties leave me so that I cannot enjoy it to the full, please, somebody take him on so I dont have to listen to his sanctimonious waffle every other Sunday at the winners briefing. No disrespect to the man of course but how many more Fiats do they have to sell before his wages are paid up!

[Jordi]

Jacques and Emerson are greats too, but because of their efforts with not-so-competitive cars they are not mentioned.
And maybe Lauda was forgotten because of his recent leadership of Jaguar...

[Legend]

Originally posted by Hamness
Would have posted a reply much earlier but have spent ages reading Leg Ends ramblings. I started this thread off by saying that whilst I cannot argue against TGF's c.v. which on paper puts up amongst the really greats of F1, I personally, cannot accept that. He appeared at a time where opposition both in terms of cars & drivers was stitled, even though he had to endure a couple of barren Ferrari years whilst they got their act together. Yes, I know that all his supporters will through their brickbats at me & it is one of those arguments that will rage long after I have departed this planet and be headed for one in Leg Ends direction, but, and I hope it happens before my faculties leave me so that I cannot enjoy it to the full, please, somebody take him on so I dont have to listen to his sanctimonious waffle every other Sunday at the winners briefing. No disrespect to the man of course but how many more Fiats do they have to sell before his wages are paid up!

HAM NESS

I know I am not in the same league as you are. (you can regard this as a compliment, if you absolutely must)
But I have some odd thoughts and I know that too. Have I ever claimed to be normal? But what is normal?:

I have a SCI-FI scenario here so you can see for your self how odd I can be:

Make a time machine and go back to the third of January 1969 . Steal the baby Schumacher and bring him to England. Raze him as his parents would and make all the conditions be just the same for him with same opportunities he had during his life. And imagine as 33 years have passed. It is the year 2002, the end of the July. If you looked at the Australian flag you would see another smaller flag at the top of it, to your left hand. Look Schumacher’s picture is there in the middle of that smaller flag!!!

[f1manoz]

Jim Clark. NUMBER ONE!

Just thought I'd add that.

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by paul-collins
So we aren't allowed to judge his actions because we can't see into his heart? What is it they say the road to hell is paved with?

You have every right to judge his actions and doings, what i'm trying to do here is to make you see and fathom his motives.

Again i would like to point out that he's not the one who made the decision in Austria. So is it fair to put all the blame on him just because he followed team orders?

- I beleive Red had answered your first reply.

[Legend]

In Military theory, it is considered more important to act decisively rather than to vacilate between options. Even if you make the wrong choice, go forward and never stop. Schumacher was part of a Team that made a contraversial decision and he wasn't man enogh to accept the choice made.

I am have lots of respect for Schumacher, as he is my F1 hero. But imagine him a bit more disciplined than he is, acting like a soldier? This version of Schumacher is dryer than a 3 month old biscuit which could not even be swallowed with 6 gallons of the hottest tea! Already he is a bit serious man. Sometimes he appears like a machine, even to me. I think those infrequent flares of mistakes and showing weakness as a person gives him a human touch as he really needs it so bad. I love humour and unfortunately Schumi is not exactly the man I would have as the first actor in Monty Payton II. Imagine all the negative things done by him, small as great, put aside, plus the podium reactions and celebrations; And what do we have there? A machine formed like a man packed inside another red machine winning lots of grand prix and titles! Unfortunately that would be the case. I have no problems imagining Michael as a nice guy. We have all seen on TV how he plays with his kids and how he is toward his family, but other people do not have the chance to see those sides of this legend. I think also if he made some more mistakes on the circuits it would be better in a way. What is the essence of humanity? I would say lots of things, but without doubt the capability to make mistakes and errors. Perfection is not suited for a human even though we sometime look up to some public characters and we expect the divine to be revealed each and every time.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Legend
I love humour and unfortunately Schumi is not exactly the man I would have as the first actor in Monty Payton II.

While I agree that on the whole he comes off pretty wooden, in the press conferences show he has a wit, but it's dryer than a martini with no vermouth. It's an acquired taste, I guess. His brother is a little more obvious in his joking.

But neither of them is Terry Gilliam, that's for sure.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Jukebox
Again i would like to point out that he's not the one who made the decision in Austria. So is it fair to put all the blame on him just because he followed team orders?

[Legend]

Originally posted by paul-collins

While I agree that on the whole he comes off pretty wooden, in the press conferences show he has a wit, but it's dryer than a martini with no vermouth. It's an acquired taste, I guess. His brother is a little more obvious in his joking.

But neither of them is Terry Gilliam, that's for sure.

Amen

[Kretzman JB fan]

The drivers that I think were champions or great drivers of their decade were

50s: Fangio, Moss,Ascari
60s: Clark, Hill,Brabham,Stewart
70s: Hunt, Lauda, Fittipaldi,Stewart
80s:Prost, Senna, Mansell,Piquet
90s:M Schumacher, Hill, JV, and Prost and Senna

Greatest drivers without a championship: Berger, Moss, Peterson,Reutemann,G villenueve

Even though it is a large list of champions I think it is a good list of the best drivers

[Legend]

Originally posted by Kretzman JB fan
The drivers that I think were champions or great drivers of their decade were

50s: Fangio, Moss,Ascari
60s: Clark, Hill,Brabham,Stewart
70s: Hunt, Lauda, Fittipaldi,Stewart
80s:Prost, Senna, Mansell,Piquet
90s:M Schumacher, Hill, JV, and Prost and Senna

Greatest drivers without a championship: Berger, Moss, Peterson,Reutemann,G villenueve

Even though it is a large list of champions I think it is a good list of the best drivers

Nice approach man!!! Whatch people and learn! Respect to all great drivers!!!

[Jordi]

Originally posted by Kretzman JB fan
The drivers that I think were champions or great drivers of their decade were

50s: Fangio, Moss,Ascari
60s: Clark, Hill,Brabham,Stewart
70s: Hunt, Lauda, Fittipaldi,Stewart
80s:Prost, Senna, Mansell,Piquet
90s:M Schumacher, Hill, JV, and Prost and Senna

Greatest drivers without a championship: Berger, Moss, Peterson,Reutemann,G villenueve

Even though it is a large list of champions I think it is a good list of the best drivers

To add to your list, a few from before:

1910-30: Robert Benoist, Jules Goux, Antonio Ascari...
1930s: Tazio Nuvolari, Rudolf Caracciola, Bernd Rosemeyer, Louis Chiron
1940s: Jean Pierre Wimille, Alberto Ascari, Louis Chiron

[Mal]

Now we are beginning to follow the thread. I can't better this list although I am sceptical about the inclusionof Hill (D).

[Legend]

Originally posted by Kretzman JB fan
The drivers that I think were champions or great drivers of their decade were


90s:M Schumacher, Prost and Senna

Ok I have made a correction just there(sorry Kretzman JB fan), and behold the majesty of the 90's three greats. WOW it is awesome

[Jordi]

No, Legend, it was perfect before!

Why? Because Hill won 22 GP's, among them some impressive races. He was the 1996 champion but more importantly he was one of the last gentlemans along with Mika.
And Jacques is there because he was pole on his first race, he won his 4th, and was nearly champion on his first year. He added the F1 title to the CART and Indy 500 ones.

It's quite subjective, you know.

[Irv the Swerve]

There seems to be a lot of rubbish in this thread, things said that are of no consequence.
If its great champions though, then here is my 2 cents worth.....

Schumacher is undoubtedly deserving of all time status, not perfect though....
Senna is someone who was vastly overrated especially since being killed....
Fangio I don't remember to be honest, but seems too nice too live with Senna and co....
Clark is the legend, never beaten on circuit, Senna's hero too - for some reason....
Stewart as underrated as Senna was overrated, practically unbeatable in early seventies....

These are my top five, but with notable mentions to
Rindt,Nuvolari,Prost,Lauda.....and soon probably Montoya.

By the way, on a different note, Valentino Rossi is also a motorsport champion beyond comparison

[Mr V]

Legend, whilst your stories are proberbly very interesting (i'm sorry, didn't read any myself, no mention of f1 after 7 words and i give up!) this is a F1 forum.......please can you post about F1 as opposed to Napolean (unless you mean Jean Todt), remote islands, maradonna or the bible! (to name a few)

this is a F1 forum and i believe that people enjoy reading about f1, not other topics!