IOM TT Pros/Cons

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

A question for those who support the continuation of road racing :

You believe that those participating, in what [only some on here acknowledge] is an extremely dangerous activity, know exactly the risks they're taking and the downstream consequences on their dependents/family etc... should they be killed. This is why it should be allowed to continue.
You believe that society interference in something that ostensibly only affects these individuals* is wrong and encroaches on our freedoms.
Do you therefore believe that society should allow anything to take place, irrespective of how lethal it is, provided it only affects those who take part in it ?

* I appreciate that many marshals and spectators have also been killed during road races, but for now, let's just concentrate on the riders.

by stressing the word 'anything' I deduce you have some examples up your sleeve which will try to make an opposing view to your own look ludicrous or unsustainable. Therefore I will say, not a blanket 'anything', but I would form a view and give an opinion on individual cases. Incidentally this is how the judiciary would look at it too.
Some activities are not allowed because they break other laws - e.g. your earlier example of Russian roulette, which cannot happen in this country due to the ban on handguns.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

by stressing the word 'anything' I deduce you have some examples up your sleeve which will try to make an opposing view to your own look ludicrous or unsustainable. Therefore I will say, not a blanket 'anything', but I would form a view and give an opinion on individual cases. Incidentally this is how the judiciary would look at it too.
Some activities are not allowed because they break other laws - e.g. your earlier example of Russian roulette, which cannot happen in this country due to the ban on handguns.

Irrespective of whether an activity would only pose a risk to those who participate, you believe that society should place restrictions on what is and is not allowed ? So we agree on that point ! Unfortunately, it would appear that some here don't.

So now its just a debate as to whether road racing is TOO dangerous or not. What would it take to make you feel it was too dangerous. If a rider was killed in every single race ? If several riders were killed in every single race ? Or is it that no matter how many people die in road racing, it still ought not to fall within the umbrella of a ban, because its a special case.

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Irrespective of whether an activity would only pose a risk to those who participate, you believe that society should place restrictions on what is and is not allowed ? So we agree on that point ! Unfortunately, it would appear that some here don't.

So now its just a debate as to whether road racing is TOO dangerous or not. What would it take to make you feel it was too dangerous. If a rider was killed in every single race ? If several riders were killed in every single race ? Or is it that no matter how many people die in road racing, it still ought not to fall within the umbrella of a ban, because its a special case.

Thats a bit of a coincidence that you should bring this question up, because I was going to put it to you some days ago, but, to be honest I'm not really that interested in the debate, so I didn't bother.
However, since you are on the subject:
You appear to see the death rate on short circuits as acceptable, and the death rate on road races as unacceptable, although there is some question over whether they really do vary that much, but for the sake of the debate, we can leave that out.
That leaves the question as : what number of deaths per rider per mile tips the balance from the acceptable short circuit level into the unacceptable road racing level ( if indeed they really do differ much)
As for freedom of choice, at risk of sounding melodramatic, a lot of people died in the 1940's fighting an appalling war to defend, among other things......freedom of choice.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Irrespective of whether an activity would only pose a risk to those who participate, you believe that society should place restrictions on what is and is not allowed ? .......

can you point out where you think I said that?

[chunder]

I think comparing World Wars with freedom of choice is a little optimistic!

A lot of that was to do with conscription and a dictator trying to force his will on the world. A little different to a few blokes right to ride flat out round a track.

I just wish the IoM could come up with something alternative. The riders would hate it initially, but can you imagine having an event for say Superbikes and instead of paing out all this money to riders, pay it out to the Japanese Superbike teams, get the AMA guys over and have a huge sort of festival of biking, just like it is now, but with a safer track.

It's a pipe dream and will never happen as to build tracks now even in the IoM is almost impossible with H&S. Ironically it may save a few lives.

Any bike racing is dangerous obviosuly, but just watch any of the ITV shows from the Island, and you can see how on the edge these guys are. It only takes on bike failure, and the reason they are all there is coz if they dont fail they can proclaim a win over the elements.

It's chicken and egg and will never change, not while the ACU are in bed with the whole deal.

[Bob Pearson]

I think comparing World Wars with freedom of choice is a little optimistic!

Maybe you should check that theory out with a few Jewish people.

Apart from that, I think the right to freedom of choice is of massive importance in this world and would defend it to the end.
Sure there are sports where people get killed, and road racing is just one of them. Someone said some days ago that if legislation against those perceived as a bit more dangerous than others were to begin, then where would it end?
I'm sure you can imagine it: A commitee formed for the grading of dangerous sports. The first question would be: what constitutes a dangerous sport? What would be the answer to that............after much deliberation a safety expert would be called from industry, and I have sat through enough of their courses to know the answer would be "zero deaths has to be the aim" I've lost count of how many times I have listened to that.
So, once the can of worms was opened I'm afraid there would only be losers.
I don't know if you race, or have ever raced on the roads, I used to and have fond memories of it. I wouldn't have missed it for anything.
As for the TT coverage on in the evenings at the moment, I can't wait for 9 o'clock to come round, its first class.

[chunder]

forgive me but comparing anything we are talking about here in any way at all to the Holocaust is simply not fair and a sure fire way of getting the thread closed.

I take your point Bob but a little over dramatic.

I take your point also about committes, waste of time and space, you are right they will only have a zero tolerance.

My main gripe is that there is enough will from the manufacturers, because of the TT's history and prevelance in bikesport to put enough into an event that might be a little safer

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

That leaves the question as : what number of deaths per rider per mile tips the balance from the acceptable short circuit level into the unacceptable road racing level ( if indeed they really do differ much)

A start would be not having a death at every SINGLE event... which is currently the case with the TT.

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

As for freedom of choice, at risk of sounding melodramatic, a lot of people died in the 1940's fighting an appalling war to defend, among other things......freedom of choice.

Putting aside the melodramatic bit about the war, even though we do enjoy a great many freedoms in this country, there are still things we are legally prohibited from doing - road racing on the island of Great Britain being just one of them.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by davyboy

A start would be not having a death at every SINGLE event... which is currently the case with the TT.



Putting aside the melodramatic bit about the war, even though we do enjoy a great many freedoms in this country, there are still things we are legally prohibited from doing - road racing on the island of Great Britain being just one of them.

Excuse me, but how can road racing be prohibited in GB if there are about 3 to 4 bigger road races every year at Oliver's Mount, Scarborough ?

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by Andy77

Excuse me, but how can road racing be prohibited in GB if there are about 3 to 4 bigger road races every year at Oliver's Mount, Scarborough ?

You are absolutely right Andy, it is not prohibited as such. An act of Parliament is required to allow it to happen. I guess anyone could apply for that, although I wouldn't hold out too much chance of success. Scarborough is of course an example of this.
I never raced there, I knew quite a few people who went and always enjoyed themselves.

Oh yes, and Davey, until you connect death rate to mileage rather than an event you cannot claim to have figures which are comparable with short circuits. A single lap of the TT is further than most short circuit races.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Oh yes, and Davey, until you connect death rate to mileage rather than an event you cannot claim to have figures which are comparable with short circuits. A single lap of the TT is further than most short circuit races.

Make up whatever rules or conditions you like Bob. The chance of a fatality on that track is greater than on a modern purpose built circuit.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The chance of a fatality on that track is greater than on a modern purpose built circuit.

Where's your data to support that?

I'm sick & tired of the double standards that appear to apply here: it's OK for riders to be killed on short circuits, but not on the IoM, & there's an "acceptable", but unquantified, casualty rate.

[MGDavid]

can't we leave our sport alone and turn our attention to religious wars or summat?

[chunder]

Davy, fair play to you mate

You either like Marmite or you dont, simple as that!!

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Make up whatever rules or conditions you like Bob. The chance of a fatality on that track is greater than on a modern purpose built circuit.

Nearly 40 riders died on purpose built circuits last year, including Snetterton, Misano, Indianapolis, Vallelunga and others. We might as well hurry up and ban motorcycle and sidecar racing altogether, eh?

[Bob Pearson]

Chunder..............I think that draws a nice line under it

And David,............Do you still race that MG/sprite? I wonder if we are ever at the same meetings...............We could discuss Religious wars between qualifying and the races..........ha ha

[Bob Pearson]

I didn't manage to draw that line fast enough!!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Nearly 40 riders died on purpose built circuits last year, including Snetterton, Misano, Indianapolis, Vallelunga and others. We might as well hurry up and ban motorcycle and sidecar racing altogether, eh?

There are serious injuries and fatalities at circuits all over the world. Dreadful though each and every one of these incidents is, they are the exception and not the norm.

The TT is different. There's a fatality at every single event. It is the norm and not the exception. It is all but a certainty that somebody will die when this thing is put on.

That's the damn problem with it !

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

And David,............Do you still race that MG/sprite? I wonder if we are ever at the same meetings...............We could discuss Religious wars between qualifying and the races..........ha ha

Hi Bob, Midget is resting this year until new engine is built.
Using Porsche924 with CSCC and ZS180 occasionally with MGCC.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by davyboy

There are serious injuries and fatalities at circuits all over the world. Dreadful though each and every one of these incidents is, they are the exception and not the norm.

The TT is different. There's a fatality at every single event. It is the norm and not the exception. It is all but a certainty that somebody will die when this thing is put on.

That's the damn problem with it !

Just to be pedantic....there wasn't one at the TT in 2008.....

And davyboy, can we ban karting too? How would you feel about that?

[strider]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Make up whatever rules or conditions you like Bob. The chance of a fatality on that track is greater than on a modern purpose built circuit.

This is probably a random fact but a fact it is.

Ian Hutchinson won all five TT races last year. Then he returned to short circuit racing and fell off at Silverstone. Another rider unavoidably ran over his leg. The injury was so bad that the leg nearly had to be amputated. Ian is in the Isle of Man this year, but he's still not fit to race.

[Andy77]

Hutchy did the Arai parade lap today together with Mick Doohan, Josh Brookes, Nicky Hayden, Cal Crutchlow and a travelling marshal

[strider]

Very glad to hear it. Really enjoyed the documentary about him at the beginning of the week.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by davyboy

There are serious injuries and fatalities at circuits all over the world. Dreadful though each and every one of these incidents is, they are the exception and not the norm.

The TT is different. There's a fatality at every single event. It is the norm and not the exception. It is all but a certainty that somebody will die when this thing is put on.

That's the damn problem with it !

Well examine how many road motorcyclists die at the IoM during all the other "festivities". Usually it's almost a dozen during the week.

I'd say better to have a controlled environment where people can race with closed roads, rather than these hoons on the road.

Out where I used to live in the western USA, rafting season is going on and usually several tourists a week die in rafting accidents, plus experienced kayakers. Nobody seems to think about that though. And usually about 20 people a year would die on the various ski hills crashing into trees or other people.

I think you should put it into perspective with other activities, some of which have staggering death tolls compared to road racing on motorcycles.

I think the IoM could look at some problem areas and make them safer.

[chunder]

Trotting out the age old thing about Ian getting injured on short circuits is an easy get out really.

On the TT let's face it, the main challenge is the track and knowing it, pushing it.

On a short circuit the main challenge is navigating your way round other riders while trying to get the best lap times. This applies in a swinging scale to the TT to, but is far more biased towards other riders.

There are not many accidents at the TT caused by traffic or collisions with other riders I would imagine far more casued by being in a pack etc in a short circuit race.