How Do We Judge a Marshal's Abilities?

[Sparky-steve]

as this thread was started due to a question i posted i think it's about time I commented here.

reading this thread is very insightful, and has given me a good idea to the whys and wherefores of posting.

as to the feedback, i always welcome it, negative or positive.
i don't take things personally but view them as a learning experience.
so if you have me on your post please feel free to let me know my good and/or bad points.

and for those who find it hard to give negative feed back try the affirmation sandwich, IE say something positive, then the negative then something positive. thus leaving the person your speaking to feeling ok but informed.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

and for those who find it hard to give negative feed back try the affirmation sandwich, IE say something positive, then the negative then something positive. thus leaving the person your speaking to feeling ok but informed.

You've beaten me to this one...I was going to say that to some extent there is no need for negative feedback in most cases...the line "you did a great job there, can I give you some pointers/can we talk about how it might be done better another time" is a lot more positive that "that was crap".

And as for age, Ed and Dave B sum it up well, age isn't an indicator of ability or experience and neither is time served.

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by The STIG

Oh yeah... and as for gauging keenness by willingness to do the grand prix - that's guys like me stuffed isn't it?

When I heard the comment I took it to mean that partway through day one they had stopped looking at the task in hand and had gone off to dreamland - skipping all that learning.

Why do an F1 GP when you could do a sprint at Curborough with the FC as Clerk ok, maybe next year

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Startline Ed

I am 23 but have 7 full seasons of experience and I am looking to upgrade to Experienced Specialist, which under the old system took a minimum of 3 years at Specialist grade.

You need to talk to Bryan Degs to set up an assessment for your next Brands meeting.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Piglet

is a lot more positive that "that was crap".

True, but "That was crap because ... " is a good thing.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Startline Ed

If I may query something please Steve? Was it solely the IO's age or was it his experience as well?

I don't want to get personal on here but it was a combination of age & attitude-I'll leave it at that!

You're right though-age shouldn't matter & it usually doesn't.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

True, but "That was crap because ... " is a good thing.

It can be, it depends on the trainee in my view - I know people that I would be perfectly happy to say that to (and do!) and I use it to describe things that I've done that haven't gone well but there are some people (not just trainees) who need to grow their confidence levels first.

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Why do an F1 GP when you could do a sprint at Curborough with the FC as Clerk ok, maybe next year

I second this proposal. Curborough is a cracking place... and I bet the food's better there. *runs from wrath of Grand Prix fanatics*

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by Piglet

You need to talk to Bryan Degs to set up an assessment for your next Brands meeting.

Thanks, Anita

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Bryan Degerlund

Thanks, Anita

What!! You're good at doing assessments and you're good at training, just remember for every young keen marshal you have to run less far

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

There's a couple of points I'd like to add to this.

The first is that we shouldn't forget the input senior incident or flag marshals can also have into the training of trainees. Any senior marshal, which is every marshal with a coloured badge, from a trainee's point of view, should be regarded as a potential trainer or mentor for the day. Describing why an incident is being handled in a particular way, enquiring as to their wellbeing on an extreme day, weatherwise, ensuring their OK after being involved in clearing up a major incident (and not just straight away, but all through the remainder of the day). All small things, but the drip-feed method of bringing people up to a certain level of competency is a good technique, particularly with our way of training by experience gained.

.

i agree and disagree with this, let me explain
as a trainee marshal i am keen for any hints and tips from any other marshal and i pass on things I've learnt to others too.
i think an exchange of information at any level is good for all of us.
i do appreciate the debrief after an incident, and the check to make sure we're ok.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by Piglet

What!! You're good at doing assessments and you're good at training, just remember for every young keen marshal you have to run less far

OK, but you know I don't do running, anyway.

[numbersix]

With regard to assessing people's ability I have a couple of home grown ideas that I find useful. Not exhaustive, just useful.

1. Checking the track in between sessions. It's boring and towards the end of the day, tiring, but I find it a useful judge of who's willing to do that extra bit. In my briefings I always mention track-checking and then I wait and see how new marshals respond. I know it sounds daft but you can tell who's keen and who's just a glorified spectator when it comes to doing the mundane, as well as the spectacular.

2. In the same briefing I encourage everyone, at all grades, to ask questions. (As Dave Brand will testify, I practice what I preach - exhaustively.)
I'm perfectly willing to accept that new marshals are frequently shy and overawed by the many perfectly sculptured beer-bellies surrounding them and I try to bring them out of themselves a bit. But I believe questioning represents an eagerness to learn, and that doesn't stop for any of us.

[Shelagh]

I confess that I have not read this thread throughout and it may be covered elsewhere - so please bear with me.....

Just watching the Legends from Brands on Eurosport2 and seen the accident at Paddock Hill where one of the marshals (just after where the car hit) was diving for cover but the other one seemed to find the whole impact "a bit of a surprise" judging by the "eek" reaction.

Where was that second marshal actually looking, to only be aware of the accident when it hit the armco and rippled along to disturb them from their reverie - "Eek"?

Two things spring to mind:
1) Somebody not paying attention to Oncoming Traffic - so how many training days have they been to..........?
2) A Newbie who hasn't been told what not to do and maybe isn't being looked after?

I have my own view, having watched over again and in slow mo, but can't give an opinion on here, having not been there.

However - just what "abilities" are we, as the Marshals Club", asking for??

If the average age is more or less within the "retired" bracket (see 2010 survey) then this must surely impact on concentration and mobility. Heck - I'm 46 and both are lacking - but especially the latter.

Open to debate.......

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

. . . However - just what "abilities" are we, as the Marshals Club", asking for??

If the average age is more or less within the "retired" bracket (see 2010 survey) then this must surely impact on concentration and mobility. Heck - I'm 46 and both are lacking - but especially the latter.

No Shelagh - "old and cunning beats young and gifted every time". When you become old you will realise this.

But, less confrontationally, what I'm suggesting is that provided you live to be old, you have learnt many of the key lessons. My concentration now is as good as it every was. My cunning puts me into fewer situations where decreasing mobility (I never did running anyway) matters. Having seen lots of things, I have experience of what to avoid.

Regards

Jim

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Where was that second marshal actually looking, to only be aware of the accident when it hit the armco and rippled along to disturb them from their reverie - "Eek"?

Two things spring to mind:
1) Somebody not paying attention to Oncoming Traffic - so how many training days have they been to..........?
2) A Newbie who hasn't been told what not to do and maybe isn't being looked after?

How about
3) Someone listening too intently to their scanner!

[SRPhoto]

Originally Posted by exflagman

How about
3) Someone listening too intently to their scanner!

If I am using a scanner I prefer to keep my eyes open.

[Greem]

Just before posting this, I though to myself "what am I trying to say here?" - the first is that I rate my own abilities fairly low, because I'm new to marshalling. But anyway...

Whilst ensconced in Australia recently I did a clubbie meeting (see this thread if you haven't read it already).

The local marshals - many of whom had done the GP and V8SC meetings numerous times - asked me lots of pertinent questions (and a whole load of impertinent ones, which was to be expected!) about how "we" and "they" do things.

The one that stuck in my mind most was whilst doing yellows during an FVee race with 29 or 30 starters was asked by the observer for our post: if I shout "RUN!", where will you go?

As a newbie (both to that track and to marshalling as a whole) I had a quick look round and pointed downwards. The bunker we were in had nice, thick concrete walls; getting out of the bunker would have opened me up to all sorts of debris if something came in quickly - and with my back to the action, a comms marshal, observer and one on blues it struck me (not literally) that I needed to hide, not run.

Good answer, so they said - apart from the day that a wheel came off at another post, shot over the wall, hit the back fence and came into the bunker from the back...

The reason I remember that discussion so clearly is that two of the people present fall into the "very able" category (as we're discussing abilities and judging them), yet couldn't decide whether running or hiding was the best approach.

...which brings me to the point: regardless of experience or ability, you can still be surprised. The day you stop learning is the day to hang up the Probans.

Graeme (still learning!)

[SRPhoto]

Originally Posted by Greem

The day you stop learning is the day to hang up the Probans.

Every Marshal, Rescue, CoC should agree with this 100%, if they don't it's time to worry!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Greem

I rate my own abilities fairly low, because I'm new to marshalling.

I'll partly disagree with that. Ability and experience aren't the same thing. Rate your ability fairly and it will help you appreciate what experience will bring and what you want to learn to close on the gap. An able marshal is an asset regardless of experience and the training (both on and off post) should assist in closing the gap. A marshal without ability will always be a liability, and extra experience not only will not help, it might make things worse because they think they're experienced! [disclaimer]II have known some who fell into this category but no longer marshal, and others may know some who still do, but I'm definitely not thinking of anyone when making this statement - just in case anyone incorrectly thinks 'is he referring to me![/disclaimer]

In the subject of this discussion, I think we're looking for how to identify the sum of experience*talent.

regardless of experience or ability, you can still be surprised. The day you stop learning is the day to hang up the Probans.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

[JackN]

Right then, my thoughts! I have been a trainee marshal for three years now, but what with University and commentary work I only tend to do 6 or 7 meetings a season. I have done a range of meetings from large meetings like F2/BTCC/GTs to club meetings and the 2cv 24hour race. But from these 3 years I have literally 0 experience on major incidents. Sure, I've swept the track, I've checked the fire extinguishers, I've consumed copious amounts of food, I've done all these regular Marshal duties, but never has anything noteworthy really happened at my post. Once I had Brendon Hartley smash into the tyre barrier at the Bombhole right infront of me. Myself and the marshal on post with me got out of the way, but then he jumped out of the car, the recovery vehicle towed him away, and we swept the track some more.

I am quite a clever chap (academically at least ) and am always willing to help out etc etc, but if something serious kicks off I have no idea how I'm going to react. So I'd imagine from the outside I seem like a reasonably good marshal and personally I feel like I'm a decent marshal, but after 3 years of nothing noteworthy to deal with I have no basis for that assumption. But at some point you have to put your trust in someone dont you? Because at the end of the day it doesnt matter how many signatures ive got, or comments from my Post Chief, if there is a situation where I have to do something to save someone's life I'm going to damn well do it.

Finally, flagging. Why dont people like flagging? I've got more enjoyment from flagging the last two meetings than I've ever done standing on the bank. You're involved, straight away, every race, every car. Isnt that what we're here for? To get involved?

I'm sorry if this turned into a waffle, I just wanted to give my point of view. I've always felt equal on post. Obviously the I/O PC etc are in charge, but in terms of being a track marshal or a trainee track marshal, I have never felt inferior. So I dont see how anyone could judge my marshalling ability, seeing as I've never had to do anything really for 3 years. But at some stage surely you have to take some responsibility? As all you wise folk have said, you can never stop learning in this game, new things will always happen, so at what stage do you decide that you have seen enough to take on more responsibility? An impossible question, I fear. I think I'll stop typing nonsense now.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Piglet

It can be, it depends on the trainee in my view - I know people that I would be perfectly happy to say that to (and do!) and I use it to describe things that I've done that haven't gone well but there are some people (not just trainees) who need to grow their confidence levels first.

that is a very good point, it does depend on who your speaking too and how well you know them to take "that was crap....." or if you need the sandwich approach..
well if your ever talking to me the "crap ........" would be fine

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'll partly disagree with that. Ability and experience aren't the same thing. Rate your ability fairly and it will help you appreciate what experience will bring and what you want to learn to close on the gap. An able marshal is an asset regardless of experience and the training (both on and off post) should assist in closing the gap. A marshal without ability will always be a liability, and extra experience not only will not help, it might make things worse because they think they're experienced!

Oh, yes. Most definitely. As a great marshal once told me: Some people spend 25 years learning; others just repeat the same year 25 times.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Woolley

In the subject of this discussion, I think we're looking for how to identify the sum of experience*talent.

Don't forget the third factor in that equation: training. The foremost ability, if that's the right word, required for marshalling, indeed for any job, is the ability to learn. Training builds the foundation on which experience builds.

[Power Bulge]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Some people spend 25 years learning; others just repeat the same year 25 times.

Another decent quote to ponder in the circumstances
The difference between intelligence and experience is that the experienced learn not to repeat a mistake. The intelligent learn from other peoples mistakes.

And now I'm going to have a lie down, 'cos that was way too deep