[WEC] The ACO's Safety Car 'Overhaul'

[PhilipR]

Dream/nightmare scenario:

The slower Hypercar ends up leading the race for the last 10 hours due to better reliability and keeping out of trouble - the faster cars have had multiple issues and are between 1-2 and laps back, lapping faster but impossible to catch up
In the last 2 hours an event happens that brings out the safety car , all the cars get a lap back with the wave around - and now in the last hour the faster cars overtake the leader and the leader for the last 10 hours due to better reliability does not even get to finish on the podium

I imagine this would backfire horribly in ACOs face and will make a farce of the " Grand Prix d'Endurance"

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Dream/nightmare scenario:

The slower Hypercar ends up leading the race for the last 10 hours due to better reliability and keeping out of trouble - the faster cars have had multiple issues and are between 1-2 and laps back, lapping faster but impossible to catch up
In the last 2 hours an event happens that brings out the safety car , all the cars get a lap back with the wave around - and now in the last hour the faster cars overtake the leader and the leader for the last 10 hours due to better reliability does not even get to finish on the podium

I imagine this would backfire horribly in ACOs face and will make a farce of the " Grand Prix d'Endurance"

Indeed, and this already happens in IMSA to an even greater extent due to the plethora of spurious safety cars.

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Indeed, and this already happens in IMSA to an even greater extent due to the plethora of spurious safety cars.

True and this does take the enjoyment out of races such as Daytona as sometimes it feels they are racing to the next Pace car period , but I can look past it a little as the lap at Daytona is short.

At Le mans a wave round can help a car recover 20+ kilometeres (or 7 minutes of racing) in just one safety car and that is too much if you ask me

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

True and this does take the enjoyment out of races such as Daytona as sometimes it feels they are racing to the next Pace car period , but I can look past it a little as the lap at Daytona is short.

At Le mans a wave round can help a car recover 20+ kilometeres (or 7 minutes of racing) in just one safety car and that is too much if you ask me

And even without the wave round 2/3rds of a lap could be recovered as they will remove 2 safety cars and bunch everyone up behind one, so a car behind safety car 3 will get to catch up to safety car 1.

Let's hope the race can be run without any safety cars and just using the slow zones if needs be.

[broadrun96]

I seem to remember this exact forum MELTING DOWN over Porsche getting a 2 SC boost one year and the whinging and crying of how unfair. You only get one of the options and in this instance the ACO responded and is trying something

And the example above is likely so miniscule that it is a mental exercise only, see previous races where that just hasn't happened. And it is within the rules so feel free to either excuse yourself cause you don't like them, ie vote with your feet, or join the ACO, work your way up and help them see the error of their ways from the inside. But working yourself into a tizzy over a VERY slim chance of a VERY VERY particular, and frankly very old, way of racing to occur seems more like being a grumpy old man than an actual complaint about anything.

And so help me god another person mention purity of a sport. THAT'S JUST NOT A THING, HUMANS WROTE EVERY RULE, WE DIDN'T GET THEM ON 2 CLAY TABLETS.

[RL17]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Why could 1 or 2 cars be taken out?

IMSA pass around in daylight had an unlapping car just drive into back of of another car in the queue.

Large field, at night loads of cars to move out ………… then some pretty big chains of cars catching up on coldish tyres……….and the restarts with cars at back on warm tyres ……….

What do SCs make? More SCs?

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I seem to remember this exact forum MELTING DOWN over Porsche getting a 2 SC boost one year and the whinging and crying of how unfair. You only get one of the options and in this instance the ACO responded and is trying something

And the example above is likely so miniscule that it is a mental exercise only, see previous races where that just hasn't happened. And it is within the rules so feel free to either excuse yourself cause you don't like them, ie vote with your feet, or join the ACO, work your way up and help them see the error of their ways from the inside. But working yourself into a tizzy over a VERY slim chance of a VERY VERY particular, and frankly very old, way of racing to occur seems more like being a grumpy old man than an actual complaint about anything.

And so help me god another person mention purity of a sport. THAT'S JUST NOT A THING, HUMANS WROTE EVERY RULE, WE DIDN'T GET THEM ON 2 CLAY TABLETS.

The example above is a bit extreme but the scenario of a slower car (let's say a Cadillac, so neither the slowest nor the fastest) having a perfect run losing the race to a faster less tidy one (let's say a Toyota having to change a transmission axle after 70 minutes) just because of that SC procedure is actually very likely. Comparison with IMSA rules are not relevant considering the length of the track at Le Mans vs Daytona or any US racetrack.

The simple fact that the new rule does not apply in the last hour shows that even the rulemaker are aware of its fondamental weakness. How can the last hour of an endurance race rules be different from the previous ones ? They are part of the same race, if a rule is not good for the money time then it is not good for the rest of the competition. Are football goals counting half if they are scored during extra time ?

Rulemakers explained they came with that solution years after there was some SC "unfairness" with GTE Pro. They come with a solution for a problem that happened once in a category no longer running and years too late. Furthermore, that particular year the race in GTE-pro was beheaded not by SC, but by a stupid change in the pitstops regulation allowing tires to be changed in the same time as refueling, actually destroying all the tire management aspect of racing. Typical from the ACO : shitty decisions, it all goes wrong and the wrong conclusions are made afterwards.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Indeed, and this already happens in IMSA to an even greater extent due to the plethora of spurious safety cars.

Spurious safety cars?
Recently I only seem to recall IMSA trying desperately to not throw yellows. One time resulting in a car hitting a big piece of debris.

Although I have seen calls that they are spurious even if a car is half on the track half off and not moving. Calls that this could have just been local yellow and marshals or a truck push/tow the thing out of the way!

IMSA are always going to play it safe like that and I can’t say I don’t blame them.

I’d prefer less FCY. But I don’t see IMSA calling superiors yellows to change the race. I see them following their standard procedure with a dose of trying to avoid it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by RL17

IMSA pass around in daylight had an unlapping car just drive into back of of another car in the queue.

That is quite a rare example. A dullard moment. I don’t recall it happening before, certainly not often.
And certainly not as likely as, say, leaving a car stranded and having the potential to not be hit. In the dark.

Large field, at night loads of cars to move out ………… then some pretty big chains of cars catching up on coldish tyres……….and the restarts with cars at back on warm tyres ……….

What do SCs make? More SCs?

The do, yes. But generally not the procedure.

As I said, I’d prefer less FCY. And not that keen on this procedure.

Slow zones, not an IMSA thing, work well at Le Mans for a lot of situations. Hopefully they are continued to be used. When appropriate from a safety point of view then it’ll be FCY.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Rulemakers explained they came with that solution years after there was some SC "unfairness" with GTE Pro. They come with a solution for a problem that happened once in a category no longer running and years too late.

To imply that's the only time someone massively benefitted from a safety car at Le Mans under the outgoing rules is just wrong.

[Steve McQ]

Sure, you always have short term winners and losers when a SC comes out on track. But consequences are limited (maximum 1 minute or 1'15") and pit tactics (use of tires, fuel, silver/bronze drive time) are a good tool to fight back on the long term.

[Gingers4Justice]

My annoyance at this has been massively tempered by the fact that safety cars are getting rarer and rarer each year at Le Mans.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

My annoyance at this has been massively tempered by the fact that safety cars are getting rarer and rarer each year at Le Mans.

Yeah, I'm clinging to that in hope. Although a massive pile up at Dunlop immediately after a 60 car restart on cool tyres isn't impossible.

[Simmi]

It still seems like any accident over a certain size triggers a SC. Any barrier repairs also seems to do (due to repair vehicles being on track).

I think in mixed conditions we could be looking at circa 4 of them.

The cynic in me and my concern about all this is that, while before throwing a SC was a bit arbitrary in terms of its impact, under the new rules it's essentially an entertainment lever. So if there's a decision to be made (SC vs FCY) I think there's inherent pressure to dial up the show. We see it in F1 almost every race now.

[Mike E]

The race director's first concern is safety. The 'entertainment' factor would have to come from elsewhere. The sporting regs? LMEM? ACO? An instruction to race control to use a SC when a FCY or slow zone would have been used before would surely be needed.
I can't see it happening especially when the new procedure is so complicated. I hope...

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The race director's first concern is safety. The 'entertainment' factor would have to come from elsewhere. The sporting regs? LMEM? ACO? An instruction to race control to use a SC when a FCY or slow zone would have been used before would surely be needed.
I can't see it happening especially when the new procedure is so complicated. I hope...

For sure that's the party line. It should be the same in other forms of motorsport too but it's not unfortunately. I know it sounds a bit tinfoil hat, but when this new SC procedure is brought in to help bring the field together, I expect it to be used.

[Adam43]

I’m sure people will be able to easily say it was for entertainment and that there was no real reason for it. Whether there is or not. We’re already saying they are going to do that! And we’ve not even had the race yet! Race control have to make a judgement call. I have no doubt we shall see that accusation, fair or not.

There is no evidence that it will be used primarily for entertainment rather than primarily for safety.

There are two parts to this. The calling it - I have no concerns about. The procedure - I am not keen on, I prefer the old way.

[joeb]

What are the odds that this new procedure makes it past this years race? Could be they try something new for the 100th and then go back to normal next year.

[Simmi]

For sure with the consistent tyre warming issues we're going to see more SCs at LM.

[Simmi]

Wave bys causing chaos in IMSA still. A great way to completely lose the thread of the race too - https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/g...-with-wave-by/

Fingers crossed the ACO's process is robust enough to prevent issues like this.

[JT240Z]

Not a particular fan of all of the wave byes but it really boils down to the driver (but more so the team) making a bad decision. First, they call for the wave bye and then they tried to resend the order, but it was too late. Really boils down to poor communication and bad judgement on the drivers and teams.

[N Martin]

I agree with the majority here I'm not a fan of these new rules. It quite worrying the direction Le mans is going as a purist racing fan. It's all seems getting to be about making TV entertainment rather than a sport. Just look how they ruined qualifying with the silly hyper pole nonsense.

Motorsport seems to be the only sport where it seems totally acceptable to take away someones hard earned lead through no fault of their own. It just doesn't happen in any other sport. We have the technology now where we shouldn't need safety cars. They should be becoming a thing of the past. I dread if le mans becomes like IMSA finding any excuse to throw a safety car to create an artificially close finish. Sport over entertainment.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by N Martin

I agree with the majority here I'm not a fan of these new rules. It quite worrying the direction Le mans is going as a purist racing fan. It's all seems getting to be about making TV entertainment rather than a sport. Just look how they ruined qualifying with the silly hyper pole nonsense.

Motorsport seems to be the only sport where it seems totally acceptable to take away someones hard earned lead through no fault of their own. It just doesn't happen in any other sport. We have the technology now where we shouldn't need safety cars. They should be becoming a thing of the past. I dread if le mans becomes like IMSA finding any excuse to throw a safety car to create an artificially close finish. Sport over entertainment.

What technology do you think makes safety cars irrelevant? And Code 60 ain't the answer, see everytime teams have to slam on the brakes at the end of a sector in F1 cause heaven forbid they actually follow speeds limits and the speeding in pit lane penalties in racing. You expect teams won't and don't cheat that? Never mind the need for equipment or people on the track, but yeah let's trust those who celebrate "massaging" the rules to follow the spirit and not speed

[Adam43]

Are IMSA “finding any excuse to throw a safety car to create an artificially close finish”? I haven’t seen any evidence of that recently. Plenty of accusations! Little evidence. Certainly nothing that can’t be simply someone else’s reasonable judgement on it.

They seem to be just leaving debris on the track now this year. There has been a lot of examples of this this year. Most notably in the last race with the sign that was half way across the track.

They also seem to give every stopped car more than ample time to get going again. To the point I start getting worried.

IMSA chose to have a cautious approach to when other vehicles are on the track. I know N24 doesn’t, but IMSA’s approach isn’t unreasonable here.

[rx555]

Seems to me if Nurburgring can run 130+ cars and never have a safety car, Le Mans could too.