Sportscar Racing and Global Warming

[old man]

It really does not matter what we as individuals believe and some of the comments in this thread since it started on Friday are really interesting and revealing.

The fact we must face is that it is perceived to be happening and we are a minority sport that could be sacrificed by any political government looking for ways to lose the least votes. The comments of the Daimler Chrysler economist fly in the face of the marketing people and illustrate the differing opinions.

We have tools and skills that show the way that CO2 emissions can be measured and cut, we could work out ways to measure the value of various fuels and factor them into regulations, we could set limits for engine size that show we are trying to cut down. The experience from the 1970s fuel crisis shows that we can be hit and I am sorry Bob, I think to do nothing would be quite wrong.

We may not agree with the greens, we may feel we know better and that the extremists are in charge, we can see lots of evidence that the planet changes all the time anyway but with the population at it's present levels and pressure mounting we need to do what we can as a sport to preserve our interests before we are told what to do by politicians looking for high office.

"Better to set an example than to be made into one"

[GTfour]

"before we are told what to do by politicians looking for high office"

This is exactly were the shoe hurts! The very small contribution of autoracing to the environment is by far not enough reason to ban or gag it in any way.
Most of this "We are all guilty" screaming is done by people who don't have a clue or have a hidden agenda to do so...

I say don't start taking the blame to our favourit sport knowing were the real problems are. And NO,don't even think of licking their a***s by developing all kinds of ultra quit or ultra ultra clean racecars but confront these econazies with the hard facts! Force them to look at it from all angle's not just the ones THEY want to see.
I,for one,will have no problems at all to let these lowlifes know how MY footprint will fit their backsides!

As someone mentioned earlier on in this thread,we all are gonna have to deal with a far bigger problem then our environment soon anyway.
Let's hope we'll be able to go to the races in the first place...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by old man

We have tools and skills that show the way that CO2 emissions can be measured and cut, we could work out ways to measure the value of various fuels and factor them into regulations, we could set limits for engine size that show we are trying to cut down. The experience from the 1970s fuel crisis shows that we can be hit and I am sorry Bob, I think to do nothing would be quite wrong.

Old man, you seem to be afflicted the Avian flu, as spread by Chicken Little.

The so called "fuel crisis" of the seventies was a scam, which at the very least proved, governments should not be in charge of engergy - transportation matters.

All the dooms-day scenarios forecast fluctuate between we are running out of oil, to oil prices are so low oil compaines are going broke. (the latter is where the tax break for oil companies came from when thousands of oil workers were out of jobs and an election was coming.)

I am not now, nor will I ever be, one who will cower like a sheep before fascist-socialit (or socialist dictators of any kind) pigs who decide I should live the way they want me to.
This is the land of the free, etc., etc.
As Gary Kaparov wrote in the Wall Street Journal, his government is is slowy adapting the best of this country, but our government is quickly adapting the worst of his.

Old man, old boy, you may be used to the socialist dictates you have been subjected to for decades, I would rather joiin the Hell's Angels before submitting to a life governed by various dictatorial socialist twits.

The choices are for one to fight for what the one believes is good and proper, or cower like a fool and surrender.

Bob

[GTfour]

[TWK]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

We know nothing....

http://www.junkscience.com/mar06/Tim...June241974.pdf

Important post...the question is, "What is junk science?" The possibility of another ice age (a well documented phenomenom that has occurred repeatedly over the past nearly a million years), or global warming, a broad accepted but so far short-term phenomenom that is unprecedented in the ecological and geological record?

Is there unanimity because the desenters have been shouted down?

What if Florida went away? It wasn't always there, of course, and in the grand scheme of things, that big sand bar will be gone again some time. It's hubris for us humans to believe that things were always as they are now, and will always be this way in the future.

The midwest of the United States has cycled in relatively recent times (geologically speaking) from temperate to tropical, to arctic, and back to temperate again. In the scheme of things, perhaps tropical (global warming) is once again next? But do we really have a lot to do with it? In previous times volcanic activity created significant changes in the climate cycle. Let's say we reduce our emissions, and then another period of high volcanic activity occurs? For naught, that's what. Is is possible that human activity is just a "pimple on the buttocks" of the real climate engine? That being sun-spot cycles, volcanic activity, tectonic plate movement, el ninos?

[davemk7]

if global warming is real and if governments cared them we'd all have solars panels on our roofs by now and it's woundn't cost thousands of pounds.

there is plenty they can before they even think of motorsport, but the minority like to shout and that leaves us with a major potential problem.

[canam]

Originally Posted by davemk7

there is plenty they can before they even think of motorsport, but the minority like to shout and that leaves us with a major potential problem.

Motorsport is the easiest of targets. it doesn't generate much in the way of emissions,, it is a minority sport and its demise will hardly hit anyone's pocket book (although it would have a biggish impact on some regional activities). That is why publicity seeking governments will target it. Motorsport has to be seen to be caring and acting...whether we agree with it (the global warming premise) or not. Of course one could take the King Canute attitude and stand against the tide: see 'ya (as you won't be around long). I would rather try and make it work so that we can continue to see the sport I enjoy thrive and evolve. The 'good old days' are just that: no longer exist.

[renkadima]

It may be an easy target, but motorsport still accounts for something like 50,000 jobs in the UK alone which will make any government stop and think before clobbering it (I hope).

A change is coming though, and it will either be global warming or the fact that the era of cheap oil is coming to an end. Either way, the consequences are unlikely to be pleasant.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by renkadima

It may be an easy target, but motorsport still accounts for something like 50,000 jobs in the UK alone which will make any government stop and think before clobbering it (I hope).

A change is coming though, and it will either be global warming or the fact that the era of cheap oil is coming to an end. Either way, the consequences are unlikely to be pleasant.

Cheap oil will be hear again. New oil depoists and technlogies are finding more and more oil reserves, not in the Middle east either.

Look to Canada and the USA ( again) to be near the top oil poducing nations in the very near future

[old man]

Plentifull yes, true, but "cheap", I doubt. Industry people don't expect it to be less than $50 barrel or their predictions on budgets and profits go for a chop and a lot of $$$$ being spent. Anything below $40 barrel would be a disaster for most oil companies in the next ten years I think

[davemk7]

Originally Posted by canam

Motorsport is the easiest of targets. it doesn't generate much in the way of emissions,, it is a minority sport and its demise will hardly hit anyone's pocket book (although it would have a biggish impact on some regional activities). That is why publicity seeking governments will target it. Motorsport has to be seen to be caring and acting...whether we agree with it (the global warming premise) or not. Of course one could take the King Canute attitude and stand against the tide: see 'ya (as you won't be around long). I would rather try and make it work so that we can continue to see the sport I enjoy thrive and evolve. The 'good old days' are just that: no longer exist.

thats kind of my point, most people don't care about global warming. they own 4x4's.
But the minority that do shout a lot and thats where motorsports has a problem.

(thats more what i was trying to say, hopefully)

[GTfour]

That is very true,however,my mother in law(greeny) tried to burn down racing with the ol' glichés of air and noise polution as well the other day. It took me a few sentences of facts and it all went quiet.
Even more so when I asked her what they were gonna do with the batteries of their Toyota Prius when they reach the end of their usefull life

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It took me a few sentences of facts and it all went quiet.

care to share them with us?

[GTfour]

Well,I told her that the amount of polution produced by normal road cars and trucks dwarfs the tiny bit of polution produced by racing.
I also pointed out that the amount of research which is being done to make racecars run efficiently is far more intense then that of normal roadcars.(few exceptions here and there).
It's easy really. Point is,many of them greeny's simply don't want to listen to reason for they think they have the sole rights to the truth...

[The Badger]

I used to be in the greenies ..... i quit !!!

Bunch of cribbing and moaning collage students with nothing else to do but whinge !!!

Go get a job .....

P.S. I always wondered how many greenies have a kat in their cars ?

[canam]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I used to be in the greenies ..... i quit !!!

Bunch of cribbing and moaning collage students with nothing else to do but whinge !!!

Go get a job .....

P.S. I always wondered how many greenies have a kat in their cars ?

They all ride pedal bikes. ...to get to their jobs.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Well,I told her that the amount of polution produced by normal road cars and trucks dwarfs the tiny bit of polution produced by racing.
I also pointed out that the amount of research which is being done to make racecars run efficiently is far more intense then that of normal roadcars.(few exceptions here and there).
It's easy really. Point is,many of them greeny's simply don't want to listen to reason for they think they have the sole rights to the truth...

All vaild points, however the industry need to make more of the research that goes on and provide a clear link between racing and the benefits that come with it.

I don't think anyone here has said we should stop racing, but we do need to be aware there will come a time, regardless of our own opions, that these questions will be asked in a wider spectrum and we need to have answers to counter them.

[old man]

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Nordic

All vaild points, however the industry need to make more of the research that goes on and provide a clear link between racing and the benefits that come with it.

Dahh Why do you think manufactures race?? dont you think there is cross over to the road going cars for sale to the public?

Of course there is a lot of technology transfer from racing to production cars. That is #1 for the manufactures, Brand Recognition and advertising is #2, Winning is down the list at #3

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Dahh Why do you think manufactures race?? dont you think there is cross over to the road going cars for sale to the public?

Of course there is a lot of technology transfer from racing to production cars. That is #1 for the manufactures, Brand Recognition and advertising is #2, Winning is down the list at #3

I know that and you know that, but I bet the average guy on the street would not be aware of any link.

As only a few % of racing is 'cutting edge' what would your counter be to all the historic classes and clubbie racing that happens. That will be seen as a target as well?

I doubt much of the Brit GT series cars advance the breed in the same way that a works team in the FIA GT would, and even then any link needs to be shouted about.

[GTfour]

@Nordic,

I simply do not agree with your idea that racing will come under scrutiny by the greens any which way. In my country,people are starting to realise in big numbers,that many of the environment issues raised by these clubs are being buffed up to make the normal man pay more taxes.
Only stupid people will try to blame motorracing,and before you now it,they simply won't be taken serious.
Over here in Holland,the times that the lefties/greenies could shout havoc and their wishes would be granted,are over. (Allthough a lot of work still has to be done to get rid of the many corrupt liars amongst them )

It surely will not end that way imho,take a look at Germany,where the greens have tried to ban the unlimited highway speeds. They never succeeded.

Racing will face a bigger problem when fuels get too expensive,I think...

[canam]

It is generally acknowledged that motor racing per se is not a major carbon emission generator. It is, therefore, easy to take action that would prevent the industry from being subject to ill-thought-out and politically motivated adverse actions...and is not particular costly. What is stopping action, then? Is it arrogance, hubris or ignorance?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by canam

It is generally acknowledged that motor racing per se is not a major carbon emission generator. It is, therefore, easy to take action that would prevent the industry from being subject to ill-thought-out and politically motivated adverse actions...and is not particular costly. What is stopping action, then? Is it arrogance, hubris or ignorance?

What action?
What is not costly?
If politicians attack you, reply to lies with truth.
Is that the action?

[old man]

Since when did the truth convince a bigot or politician, "attack is the best form of defence" "get your retaliation in first" etc.

This discussion is not about the mechanism of, or blame for global warming, that is not our bag and we will all have our views and data upon which those views are based. The whole point of the discussion is what could we do to ensure that we are able to continue to enjoy our chosen sport, perhaps earn our livings from it and help improve the situation?

Le Mans for many years had the "Index of Performance" award and I recall many sleek Panhards that were purely concerned with it. A similar award could be made for the car emitting the least CO2 whilst attaining the fastest speed or distance covered and could be irrespective of class. The European Comissioners yesterday made proposals on future emission levels and the technical development possible through racing can and should be seen to be working on the problem. There are some brilliant engineers reading these threads who could quickly come up with a formula that ensures fair and safe competition and I am not proposing a new class, just an across the board award, it would be good PR at this time

[davemk7]

there are endurance races based upon using as little fuel as possible, i'm not sure where or when. But vehicles running for hours on an egg cup full of pertol, it is possible........

it needs advertising and making the general public aware enough to stop motorsport being the target. you'll never convince an idiot, but general the general public will believe whatever they are told. me included, i'm lazy and dump too.

it has gotten to the stage already where most people see "being greener" as an excuse to tax everything else more.

It's time to shout about everything thats good and advantagous and make sure we have the facts to back it up.

"the best form of defence is attack"

step 1 prove the greenies wrong
step 2 prove that green taxes are for governments to make money

assuming that both are possible, then it's time to do the things that are geniunly needed to make a difference, like less poluting aircraft

sorry went into a party politicla broadcast almost, carry on.