BMW rumour for Le Mans 2017

[deggis]

For example Mercedes doesn't spend that much. It is not very equal to smaller teams, I wasn't denying that, but with them proportionally more of their total budget consists of the prize money, with some teams even more than half. I just disagree calling these insignificant especially when talking about them in a WEC thread, WEC's profits will not ever even get near these sort of figures.

https://infogr.am/team-f1-2014-budget-and-employees (these are in EUR)

ALMS used to have some kind of a prize money purse, and if I remember correctly, manufacturer teams weren't eligible for it, which kind of meant sense as the prizes were so small it wouldn't have mattered much to them anyway. I don't know if they gave the money to anybody then in case where top standings of a race were taken by manufacturers, or just gave them to first private team finishers.

If subtracting sponsorship from the budgets, I wouldn't be surprised if for example Mercedes ends up spending less of their own money than for example Audi.

[TF110]

Paltry isnt insignificant, not in absolute terms of amount. Even though there are large significant sums, the relative amount received to what they spend is small. Not small in terms of money amount, of course. With the money they use for an F1 car/team, teams like Force India or Sauber could be competing for wins in the wec. Of course these teams get a lot from pay drivers and personal sponsorships which wouldnt be as viable in the wec. All this Im pointing out is towards the wec expanding with more manufacturer interest and/or lower costs (which looks likely).

[Spyderman]

Costs will always increase, partly due to reasons that are beyond the control of the regulators (commodity prices, inflation, exchange rates, etc.), and partly because many of the "cost saving measures" land up being more costly in the long run. Unless the vision is to undertake a tightly controlled spec racing series, the cost issue will always be a part of life in a relatively open and innovative series. The success of trying to control costs (in an open series) is about as successful as the attempts to try and control CEO and other top management salaries.

If you look at the example deggis kindly posted, and redistribute the "Premium" pay (which is not performance based) amongst the 10 teams it would provide $24.9million to each. This would have contributed to a significant reduction of the Williams losses for 2014 (which was an unusually poor financial year given certain investments that were made). Significantly reducing ones losses cannot be sneered at.

As in society, there will always be rich teams and poor(er) teams. Some of those poor(er) teams might achieve great success and become, over time, rich teams. For this to happen however, enough room must be left by regulators for these teams to be able to innovate and try and find "affordable" solutions to achieve competitiveness. The fewer options that are given to these teams for innovation, the lower are the chances for success, and often more costly.

Conversely, there will be some teams that will not succeed and, in the fullness of time, will leave the series. It is part of a life cycle.

What regulators can do is to create a series that is attractive enough to entice other manufacturers to enter and replace the positions that are left vacant by the leaving team. It’s Darwinism at its best. (Example Porsche that left due to financial reasons but was enticed to come back due to innovative and “open” rules).

Having said all that, it is obvious that some cost saving measures must be undertaken. I don’t know what these are, because I don’t know enough about the costs structures of the teams and neither that of the series. These measures however, should be seen through the prism of attempting to control the acceleration of these costs. There will never be a successful cost freeze.
As mentioned before, I don’t know enough about the costs structures to make any valid suggestions, but it does seem to me that the banning of certain technologies that are commonly used on road cars is not the road the series should be taking. Manufacturers want and need to develop these technologies, and it seems to me that many would rather spend some of that development budget on the race track than on flying half way around the world to try and simulate harsh conditions. (assuming of course, that it is manufacturers that we are trying to attract)

What seems obvious to me is that an excessive focus on cost control and reduction will not in itself, provide success for the series in the medium-to-long term without an equally focused attempt to increase revenue.

At his stage it’s life-cycle, the series needs growth. Not stagnation.

[GriffM3]

With the BMW P1 information quiet at the moment what do you think the chances are BMW officials and executives will be at Le Mans for the race? I know they are waiting for the regs to be released before making an announcement but I have to think if they are present for the race that will be a telling sign. We shall she.

[Azy]

As Audi fan I would love to see BMW in Le Mans. More brands beaten by Audi better for Audi And WEC now is so interesting with all this tech so Im curious what BMW would do. 1.5l R3 ? ;p

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Azy

As Audi fan I would love to see BMW in Le Mans. More brands beaten by Audi better for Audi And WEC now is so interesting with all this tech so Im curious what BMW would do. 1.5l R3 ? ;p

If they do come P1 i would hope as BMW fan that they will stick to their signature - inline 6. Very small chance of that happening though as inline engines are not as rigid as Vee engine and are rarely used in racing because of that.

In recent years BMW has abandoned it's many core values, and downsized all their engines, invested a lot in diesels, and even started producing cars with FWD (smh)

[ss_collins]

BMW types were at Silverstone.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by deggis

If subtracting sponsorship from the budgets, I wouldn't be surprised if for example Mercedes ends up spending less of their own money than for example Audi.

I highly doubt that. Don't buy the $150-200 m allegelly expended by VAG teams either. If they were putting that much money into it, why wouldn't they be in F1, which has much more visibility as it's a shorter races format based heavily on driver's fanboys?

Even Le Mans has relatively low repercution, compared to NASCAR or F1, so I will never believe anybody expends more than F1 teams in WEC.

Le Mans has almost 300k attendance and +1 million viewers in French tv, alone. From attendance alone, ACO should a revenue around $20 m Euros, as tickets are 75 Euros. French tv + Eurosport/Fox Sports/Japanese TV should also bring some considerable income to them. Unfortunately, I would guess ACO keeps a big part of that and only pays out a few in prizes. Can't see anybody putting more than $50 m dollars in a WEC season, tbh, given the revenue generated and visibility/repercution surrounding it.

The reason I believe a BMW participation is possible is their finances. They had only less profit than Toyota and VAG, last year

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Artur

Can't see anybody putting more than $50 m dollars in a WEC season, tbh, given the revenue generated and visibility/repercution surrounding it.

That's about what Toyota is told to be spending (I think it has come out of the horse's mouth too) and in any case they are clearly spending less than Audi or Porsche, so...

[Artur]

Was it really confirmed by Toyota? Even if they did expend that, why would Audi/Porsche be spending +triple of that? To me it doesn't make any sense, tbh. If Toyota really expends 50 m a year, I wouldn't imagine Audi putting more than 60 m into it. The biggest part of the costs are quite the same for everybody, I would guess. Audi just seems to use more of wind tunnel time, isn't it?

Anyway, the two things(Audi allegelly expending x3/4 more than Toyota, which would mean F1-like budget) doesn't make any sense to me. It's just my humble opinion and I, obviously, can be wrong, but it would quite shocking, to me, if the situation is like that tbh

[pach233]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

BMW types were at Silverstone.

Very interesting, maybe some substance to the rumor then. I've always thought current era P1 is the perfect class for what BMW is trying to accomplish/portray in road car market.

[Badlands99]

There have been a fair few articles in the press over the last year or so of a link up between Toyota and BMW with both using common chassis and hybrid technology for the new Supra and Z4 replacement - due circa 2017.

Could there be an interesting liaison away from the road cars too?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Artur

Was it really confirmed by Toyota? Even if they did expend that, why would Audi/Porsche be spending +triple of that? To me it doesn't make any sense, tbh. If Toyota really expends 50 m a year, I wouldn't imagine Audi putting more than 60 m into it. The biggest part of the costs are quite the same for everybody, I would guess. Audi just seems to use more of wind tunnel time, isn't it?

Anyway, the two things(Audi allegelly expending x3/4 more than Toyota, which would mean F1-like budget) doesn't make any sense to me. It's just my humble opinion and I, obviously, can be wrong, but it would quite shocking, to me, if the situation is like that tbh

I don't know why it would be shocking. Word was that Peugeot's budget for a three-car full season ILMC effort was around 75 million Euros and that was before all the expensive hybrid stuff.

Audi was always the one with the largest budget so assuming that they spend more than 100 million certainly won't be off the mark too far.

Toyota always said they spend less than a 1/4 of their F1 budget, which was 400 million at one point. So if they're at around 75 it would be true, but still a lot less than what Audi and Porsche are spending.

[Pandemonium]

I don´t know how some people come up with the numbers...More than 100 million for Audi and Porsche for sure. Anyway... hope we get more rumours soon... maybe when the new rules get announced.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Artur

Was it really confirmed by Toyota?

2012: "Toyota is spending as much as 40 million euros ($50 million) on entering its TS030 hybrid at Le Mans and six other endurance races this year, according to Leupen"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...mans-race.html

Even if they did expend that, why would Audi/Porsche be spending +triple of that? To me it doesn't make any sense, tbh. If Toyota really expends 50 m a year, I wouldn't imagine Audi putting more than 60 m into it. The biggest part of the costs are quite the same for everybody, I would guess. Audi just seems to use more of wind tunnel time, isn't it?

It might be deceiving in a way that Toyota might be able to do things more efficiently as they're the only one that can do everything in-house at the TMG Cologne base. I'm sure at least Audi needs to out source a lot more.

But look at the Le Mans entry list and see which team has just two cars. No, one additional car probably wouldn't cost 50M but it is the most obvious thing about Toyota's more restricted/limited budget.

Anyway, the two things(Audi allegelly expending x3/4 more than Toyota, which would mean F1-like budget) doesn't make any sense to me. It's just my humble opinion and I, obviously, can be wrong, but it would quite shocking, to me, if the situation is like that tbh

There was that one figure from Racer.com and Marshall Pruett that claimed Audi spends 250M usd. That I don't believe, but all other figures mentioned in the media have been more consistent and in the 100-150M range.

I'm also wondering if it is really a healthy sign with the top teams apparently not even being able to lure title sponsors. Clearly the ROI is enough for now and WEC has a lot more potential but it always remain a niche.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by deggis

There was that one figure from Racer.com and Marshall Pruett that claimed Audi spends 250M usd. That I don't believe, but all other figures mentioned in the media have been more consistent and in the 100-150M range.

Don't forget that Audi moved into Neuberg last year, Pruett may be including the cost of constructing those facilities in his reported figure for Audi's budget.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by deggis

I'm also wondering if it is really a healthy sign with the top teams apparently not even being able to lure title sponsors. Clearly the ROI is enough for now and WEC has a lot more potential but it always remain a niche.

Do the factory teams want sponsors? They might only want to advertise themselves so it could be a choice not to have sponsors. Same is true for the factory teams in GTE. Aston has Gulf colors, but the rest are pretty spartan.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by joeb

Do the factory teams want sponsors? They might only want to advertise themselves so it could be a choice not to have sponsors.

(deja vu warning) Not at any price of course but I refuse to belive the putting a sub-brand like "Lightweight technology" sticker on the fin is worth more than two-digit title sponsor deal. If anything, that or the stupid PORSCHE INTELLIGENCE thing that nobody will ever even read unless the car is flipping seem more like placeholders.

I'd really like to know how much DMG Mori pays Porsche. It's not completely dominating the livery or a title sponsor but this year the text is quite big on the fin. If it is somehow B2B then probably not much.

Total's deal with Peugeot was quite signicant (2011: 20M from the 75M overall budget).

Same is true for the factory teams in GTE. Aston has Gulf colors, but the rest are pretty spartan.

GTE budgets are also entirely in different ballpark though...

[ss_collins]

Just a pointer - no budget for Toyota will include the engine and hybrid system. Not sure anyone outside Toyota HQ in Japan knows what that cost (and I suspect nobody will ever know)

[TF110]

I remember that story of Toyota saying they spend (less than?) a quarter of their F1 budget. If $300million a year was their F1 budget, that means $75million a year on the lmp1 project. And racer.com reports Audi spend $242million a year on lmp1. I cant find the story on Porsche or Toyota but just remember Toyota's being 1/4 that of F1.

[joeb]

Hey, I just noticed this is t BMW thread, so to get back on track.....Do we think BMW would need a $100 million program to be competitive, more? less?

[J Jay]

More in the first years because they will be starting from scratch and building the necessary facilities will blow that figure out of the water. Once that is established they could run on $100,000,000 a year if they make all the right calls.

[deggis]

Ben Constanduros
‏@BenConsty
Oh geez! Just been informed that there will press invitations for a new GTE AND LMP1 projects at Le Mans - can guess one, but TWO!

https://twitter.com/BenConsty/status/606799290527313922

Is it BMW?

[J Jay]

Maybe it's Glickenhaus instead? I know it's still early days for the SCG003 but he seems committed to the cause and privateer P1s are also sought after (just not as much as factory P1s, obviously).

It would be quite early for BMW as well, would it not?

[GriffM3]

I has to be Ford for GTE and BMW for LMP1...BMW is getting crushed by Audi and Mercedes right now in top level racing and has to do something to combat that. They do not want to spend the $$ in F1 again so they can take on Audi and Porsche for supremacy in P1...God I hope this come true they need a top level race program badly!