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1 Oct 2008, 10:51 (Ref:2301889) | #51 | ||
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1 Oct 2008, 10:54 (Ref:2301890) | #52 | ||
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1 Oct 2008, 11:23 (Ref:2301909) | #53 | |||||
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I'm afraid the rules will be similar if not nearly the same. The press release PDF is not exactly specific about this, but at least there is a difference in wording... ACO is talking about hybrids instead of "KERS". Basicly same thing but big difference if you take it literally. Looks like flywheel systems are already ruled out? Quote:
I'm actually quite scared. Also IndyCar is going for turbos in the future. Currently sportscars has this joker card called green racing, and once F1 becomes greener with small, efficient turbos, with KERS and HERS (heat recovery, lol with these names), the joker card will be taken away. So ACO better try to get the best out of these years before 2013 (currently, F1 engines might change sooner too, altough I wouldn't expect with all this talk about budget capping, single make engines etc). There might be more options on sportscars but F1 will always be the pinnacle of media attention. And that is pretty relevant to a manufacturer. Quote:
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1 Oct 2008, 11:29 (Ref:2301913) | #54 | ||
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1 Oct 2008, 11:34 (Ref:2301922) | #55 | ||
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1 Oct 2008, 12:23 (Ref:2301971) | #56 | ||
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http://auto-racing.speedadmin.mindco...-le-mans-blog/
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1 Oct 2008, 13:07 (Ref:2302000) | #57 | ||
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Roger is a hands on kind of person who delegates very little. Boy is he going to have a busy season if he really does all those series!
DK |
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1 Oct 2008, 14:06 (Ref:2302050) | #58 | |||
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The things about the KERS have been said by Luca Marmorini (former Ferrari) and actual Toyota engine designer, who tested Toyota F1 KERS and the same system will be applied on LMP1 in ACO rules. I've read his interview on Autosprint magazine. Point two: in the future, turbo will be the answer for all the manifacturer, 'cause only with turbo they'll be able to reduce emissions for new engines, according to the new rules. Point three: in formula 1 we have same engine (stroke and bore decided by the rules!), same engine weight, same number of cylinders, same material, same distribution system, all n/a engines, undirect fuel injection, and you came here to say formula 1 is the pinnacle of the motorsport?! Probably you do believe in Ecclestone and Mosley words! It's very sad what you say! Would you know why? Well, because you believe formula 1 is the best expression of motorsport only because it has all the tv and media attention. Is this the system to measure the real technology of this sport? Is the advertising the most important parameter? No, I don't think that's the true. In formula 1 there's not any experimentation, and all the news in the last years are coming from endurance. Watch the TDI and HDI diesel injection sysems, DFI and FSI systems for petrol, the new hybrid rules and KERS system! This just to remember the main innovations. So, now I ask you what are the last innovations arrived by formula 1 in the last years? Point three: many manifacturers are wasting moneys in formula 1, such as Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda. Do you think waste money is synonymous to have innovations? In formula 1 we have no changes since many years. Is this the way to innovate? Point four: do you think it's easier to build a car designed to go as fast as possible for quite 1h 30m, or to design a car to race 24 hours, quite at the same speed of a formula 1, but capable to resist to a so long race and so hard solicitations? |
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1 Oct 2008, 14:12 (Ref:2302052) | #59 | ||
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Don't forget a large part of the budget, in formula 1, is spent for hospitality and similar stupidities...
Is this technology, too? Now formula 1 is only the most expensive circus of the world. It's all based on the merchandising, on moneys, but there's not much substance. |
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1 Oct 2008, 14:20 (Ref:2302059) | #60 | ||
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Another part of the business is spent for the teams long transfers all around the world for same of the most stupid races I've ever seen (Singapore, Valencia and all the others stupid tracks of Tilke era).
If you consider the engine development has been stopped, only aerodynamic and bodywork improvements are allowed, you can understand clearly how the larger part of the business is spent: 300 mechanics, when 20 would be a reasonable number. Formula 1 is just a monument to the stupid expenses. |
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1 Oct 2008, 14:39 (Ref:2302072) | #61 | ||||
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Last edited by gwyllion; 1 Oct 2008 at 14:41. |
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1 Oct 2008, 15:09 (Ref:2302094) | #62 | |||
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Well, but it is ome from incompetent to compare the engine developement with freeze rule, with a free developement. Or don't you think this? |
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1 Oct 2008, 15:58 (Ref:2302116) | #63 | |||||||||
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And YOU said: "The KERS system will be used in f1 will be prehistoric in confront of the same system will be used in endurance races" This is quite contradictory to what you say now. How the F1 system can be prehistoric compared to LMPs if it's same or similar system? Quote:
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And then answer to your question: depends what is the competition. And here is a hypothetic question for you: which is likely to happen sooner, if Audi and Peugeot decided to join F1 and Ferrari and McLaren decided to join sportscars: 1) Audi or Peugeot wins the F1 World Championship? 2) McLaren or Ferrari wins Le Mans? Before you answer, notice how quickly Honda and Toyota, one of the biggest manufacturers in the world, achieved it when they started as factory teams in F1... oh, wait - it's still pending! ps. Would be nice if you tried to use QUOTE tags. It's not really that hard to use them and it makes writing and reading much easier. -edit- Last edited by deggis; 1 Oct 2008 at 16:04. |
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1 Oct 2008, 16:05 (Ref:2302121) | #64 | ||
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Estimated budget split of an F1 team based on the 2006 season. Adapted from F1 Racing (March 2008 issue). Based on a top team's budget. |
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1 Oct 2008, 16:08 (Ref:2302122) | #65 | ||||
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Again read http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans..._regl09_gb.pdf ACO is pretty clear: Quote:
Marmorini's main criticism was that F1 only allows rear wheel KERS, hence limiting the efficiency. The LMP1 hybrids annouced for 2009 also satisfy his definition of "primitive":
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1 Oct 2008, 16:13 (Ref:2302123) | #66 | ||
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and what are those F1 budgets?
More then some 3rd world Countries GDP |
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1 Oct 2008, 16:26 (Ref:2302133) | #67 | ||
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1 Oct 2008, 16:29 (Ref:2302138) | #68 | ||
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In March 2007 F1 Racing published its annual estimates of spending by Formula One teams. The total spending of all eleven teams in 2006 was estimated at $2.9 billion. This was broken down as follows; Toyota $418.5 million, Ferrari $406.5 m, McLaren $402 m, Honda $380.5 m, BMW Sauber $355 m, Renault $324 m, Red Bull $252 m, Williams $195.5 m, Midland F1/Spyker-MF1 $120 m, Toro Rosso $75 m, and Super Aguri $57 million. More recent numbers from "Formula Money" publication: Toyota $445,6 million McLaren $433,3 million Ferrari $414,9 million Honda $398,1 million No wonder teams wants cost reducement, budgets caps etc. No idea about Audi's or Peugeot's respective budgets, but nowhere near at these numbers. Some guesses or estimations in this thread. |
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1 Oct 2008, 16:36 (Ref:2302140) | #69 | |||
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1 Oct 2008, 17:05 (Ref:2302163) | #70 | |
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Hey Dario, relax, you're only arguing with yourself about how much you don't like F1! Everybody in this forum likes Sportscars too
And you did not comment on my comment about the F1 hybrid system |
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1 Oct 2008, 17:10 (Ref:2302167) | #71 | ||
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ACO Le Mans doesn't rule Japan GT, put the KERS system proposed in Japan GT was quite similar to the ACO's one.
10" difference on a single lap are very very few, if you consider LMP1 is 385 kg heavier than F1 car and has the air restrictors! You must consider LMP1 could make more than 5000 km with the same engine, at the maximum of its potential. F1 could do the same just for 2 hours (in the best case). I suggest it should be harder to build a car to compete in a modern long distance race. Toyota tried to win Le Mans befor to join F1, but failed both times. So, I think to win Le Mans is as hard as win F1 title. Peugeot failure shows clearly this point. Related to the KERS, I think if F1 would be the pinnacle of the motorsport, its system would be the best, compared to LMP. Sorry, that's not the case. In the best case, they are on the same level. I find 50% of the budget for engine, considering the freezer rule, is wasting money. They could save all this moneys. This would allow to many other manifacturers to join in F1. |
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1 Oct 2008, 17:13 (Ref:2302169) | #72 | ||
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I'm saying this because I'm tired to hear Eccleston, Mosley and co. to talk in bad terms about Endurance!
Media really things formula 1 is the best of the motorsport. And this is frustrating, specially for the lovers of the real motorsport. |
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1 Oct 2008, 17:45 (Ref:2302194) | #73 | ||
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It's been disastrous for Jaguar, Porsche, Peugeot, Honda (since they re-entered) and Toyota. Toyota had a long, distinguished history in the WRC, interspersed with Le Mans programs. Their F1 program has made little more than a ripple amongst the general public, and is derided by motorsport fans. Whatever they may think, manufactuers can't go against their history, some are destined for F1, others Le Mans, WRC, touring cars etc., with a little crossover. |
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1 Oct 2008, 17:49 (Ref:2302197) | #74 | |||||||
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Much harder to beat several teams (like in F1) than only beating one rival team (like now in Le Mans) and try to win all 19 rounds in the season than to win one race, despite the length of 24 hours (of course to keep competitive LMP team has to race in ALMS/LMS too), where bad luck can be a huge factor. Quote:
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Last edited by deggis; 1 Oct 2008 at 17:57. |
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1 Oct 2008, 18:05 (Ref:2302211) | #75 | ||
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Honda/Toyota: I wouldn't say disastrous since CEOs still keep writing checks. Last edited by deggis; 1 Oct 2008 at 18:07. |
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