[Driver] The GOAT - A bracket to determine (just for fun)

[Gerard C]

Wonderful answer. Thanks again. Merci beaucoup.

[S griffin]

The problem is how do you define ‘great?’ Obviously reading these threads it seems everyone has their own interpretation and that helps us decide who in our own views are the greatest

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The problem is how do you define ‘great?’ Obviously reading these threads it seems everyone has their own interpretation and that helps us decide who in our own views are the greatest

And that is the beauty of this entertaining exercise.

[Gerard C]

[crmalcolm]

GOAT - we are reaching the end of the bracket to determine the GOAT from a driver perspective, but as we all know F1 is about man and machine.

The impact of a car on a driver's success has been discussed in this thread - and my last post included a cheeky reference to the car GOAT. But is there another discussion/bracket to be found?

It raises a whole load of new questions - what makes a great F1 car?:
Beauty vs Performance
Driver vs Engineer
Innovation vs Evolution
Reliability vs Speed
Nostalgia vs Sentimentality

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It raises a whole load of new questions - what makes a great F1 car?

Now you ask… Not compliant vs compliant may be? Red vs the other colors?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Now you ask… Not compliant vs compliant may be? Red vs the other colors?

Or just Lotus 49 and the rest......

[Gerard C]

Sorry, did you say Brabham or Tyrrell … Cant read, my age certainly…

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Sorry, did you say Brabham or Tyrrell … Cant read, my age certainly…

BT49?
BT24?

Tyrell 006?
P34?

[Gerard C]

[Gerard C]

You've been talking about training the drivers, very wisely in those words:
That's not to say that drivers from the '60s would not be able to reach the athletic ability of a driver from the 2010s, but the truth is that today's drivers are fitter
It was a joke here, when it came to monitor some drivers like Marc Sourd, Production cars race at Montlhéry (cant remember the year). He used to be what we call "un beau bébé", meaning well trained, good health conditions, muscles everywhere and so on. Curves being showed to any doctor always brought the same diagnosis: sorry for your mate, he's dead!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

It was a joke here, when it came to monitor some drivers like Marc Sourd, Production cars race at Montlhéry (cant remember the year). He used to be what we call "un beau bébé", meaning well trained, good health conditions, muscles everywhere and so on.

'Eh bien, c'est un peu comme si forme et performance avaient un beau petit bébé.'

Or

'L'accouchement est difficile, et votre beau bébé peut en être marqué pour un certain temps.'

??

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

L'accouchement est difficile, et votre beau bébé peut en être marqué pour un certain temps.

That's what my Mum has been told a certain day. How do you know that?

When it came to seriously train our F1 drivers, first in rope of course Alain aka Merci Jean-Marie. What is said is that he was handled by a specialized doc' well known in the cycling world. He became then a very acceptable rider but during a car race no noticeable change to his physical abilities could be recorded. After a while, someone dared to whisper "what about the influence of adrenaline"? This is where Schumacher has been doing better than anyone before, checking his health in depth several times during each GP.

Back to your question: "Could Lewis Hamilton have driven a Mercedes-Benz W196 from 1954? The definitive answer is yes." Indeed. But amongst the big changes between the Behra, Wimille and Fangio time vs Ham, Vettel and Gasly there is the duration of the races. And to biaise the evaluation, I dont think LH could drive his Merc after the loss of the steering wheel as Nuvolari did once, TBD (To Be Dishonest).

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

It was a joke here, when it came to monitor some drivers like Marc Sourd, Production cars race at Montlhéry (cant remember the year). He used to be what we call "un beau bébé", meaning well trained, good health conditions, muscles everywhere and so on. Curves being showed to any doctor always brought the same diagnosis: sorry for your mate, he's dead!

OK I've read this 5 times and I still don't have clue what it means .

[Gerard C]

OK, fine… The subject was athletics abilities, drivers from the 60's vs from the 2010.
To support the fact that racing a car is very demanding and exhausting, whatever the category, I took an example which I myself have seen at Montlhéry in the 80's. The "med test" driver was Marc Sourd, almost an athlete, a Viking more than a weakling. After the race, when his cardiac test (live ECG?) was shown to any doc none could believe the "dummy" had survived.

All this to highlight that a Maserati 250 was "raw", no PSA*, no ABS, no TC, no nothing vs a modern F1 adding the duration of some GPs making them real enduro… Soooo if we know for sure that SLH can drive a SLR and W196 we dont know if he would be faster and safer than any gladiator of the era.

*PSA: power steering assist

[Aysedasi]

Yes, one of those unanswerable questions, isn't it. You expect the 'cream' to rise to the top in any era and, given the chance, the likes of Moss and Fangio would probably have revelled in the modern day cars. The drivers of today, had they been brought up in the way those of the past were, would probably have done the same in what Moss and Fangio had to drive. The set of skills needed though was clearly very different. But Fangio was a man as is Hamilton, so there is no reason to suppose that swapped over, and with the requisite knowledge and experience in the machinery, I'd expect them to be largely 'transferable'...

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The set of skills needed though was clearly very different. But Fangio was a man as is Hamilton, so there is no reason to suppose that swapped over, and with the requisite knowledge and experience in the machinery, I'd expect them to be largely 'transferable'...

Agreed. But you should have say that to a man pretending that "Even a monkey could drive a modern F1. So can I" May be Lauda was not monkish enough because I dont think the Jaguar mechanics fully appreciated his demonstration… "Know what? You are fired!" was a possible answer to the monkey thingy! Yes, I know french humor is a pure disaster!

[Adam43]

But Hamilton is, and needs to be to be competitive, in way better shape than Fangio. Perhaps a different kind of physical ability, maybe.

And as Graham Hill described in one of his books that while being in good shape was important (he made sure he went up stairs two at a time) motorsport was more a sport of the mind than physical ability.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

But Hamilton is, and needs to be to be competitive, in way better shape than Fangio. Perhaps a different kind of physical ability, maybe.

Impossible not to agree, of course. One can point evolution of the human species and ability to adapt to the machine, ground effect for instance.
May be cycling is not the perfect example, but "le record de l'heure" went from 22km in 1872, to 56km (Boardman, ancient regs), showing that when it comes to a fierce competition nothing can stop the evolution, neither man nor machine.

[Aysedasi]

Yes, good point. Otherwise we would still be celebrating sub 4 minute miles.....

[Adam43]

It’s not just that “evolution”. Back then they didn’t try to be fit, even for the era. Hamilton’s fitness stands comparison to other sports.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It’s not just that “evolution”. Back then they didn’t try to be fit, even for the era. Hamilton’s fitness stands comparison to other sports.

Yes, not only LH for the drivers but the mechanics too. As to team managers, seems it works too, for instance Alfred N and Toto W. Mais il y a encore l'exception française, nobody discovered the recipe to transform a shrimp into a lobster so far…

[crmalcolm]

Schumacher has taken victory in the 3rd/4th playoff, by a clear 14 to 6 margin.

The final still has a short while to run, and voting is tight. You can place your vote here - The GOAT - Grand Final - Senna vs Hamilton

[crmalcolm]

Now we know – The Ten-Tenths F1 GOAT Driver, as determined by the bracket, is Ayrton Senna – taking a narrow 12-10 victory over Lewis Hamilton in the final.
Compared to the open poll running here – the result may be a bit of a surprise, given that voting there has a two-way tie at the top between Hamilton and Jim Clark currently at 11 each, with Senna in third place on 9 votes.

But how did we get to this result?

Firstly, the list of 64 seeds was created. This list is as follows:
1.Schumacher
2.Prost
3.Hamilton
4.Senna
5.Fangio
6.Stewart
7.Vettel
8.Alonso
9.Clark
10.Piquet
11.Lauda
12.Fittipaldi.E
13.Hill.G
14.Mansell
15.Brabham
16.Hakkinen
17.Button
18.Raikkonen
18=Hill.D
20.Ascari
21.Rosberg.N
22.Jones
23.Moss
24.Andretti.M
25.Scheckter
26.Hunt
27.Villeneuve.J
28.Peterson
29.Reutemann
30.Hulme
31.Rindt
32.Surtees
32=Farina
34.Barrichello
35.Rosberg.K
36.Berger
37.Verstappen
38.Villeneuve.G
39.Ricciardo
40.Hawthorn
41.Hill.P
41=Ickx
43.Gurney
44.Watson
45.Patrese
46.Regazzoni
47.Boutsen
48.Frentzen
49.de Angelis
50.Rodriguez
51.Depailler
52.Gonzalez
53.Fittipaldi.C
54.Surer
55.Rosier
56.Heidfeld
57.Kubica
58.Pryce
59.Brundle
60.Pace
61.Ginther
62.Cevert
63.Beltoise
64.Bira
64=Fagioli
66.Bellof
67.Behra

The list was compiled by taking a combination of Autosport’s F1 Greatest 40 drivers and NewAtlas’s computer-modelled top 50 F1 drivers. Coupled to this, the list of title winners was ranked, as well as total wins.

For example – Schumacher came #2 in Autosport’s list, and #3 in the NewAtlas list. His titles saw him ranked #1 and race wins at #2. Overall, this placed him number one on the seeding list.

Behra came #38 in the Autosport list and did not figure in the NewAtlas list. He doesn’t appear on the title list, or race winners list. Overall, this placed him number 67 on the seeding list.

With an overall list of 67, and the need to get to 64 seeds for the bracket – those drivers in positions 64, 65, 66 and 67 were entered into a preliminary knock-out. That knockout saw Bira and Fagioli receiving zero votes – Behra getting 4 and Bellof getting 5; the driver who was initially seeded 66 managed to take the final place in the bracket.

[chillibowl]

interesting indeed!

i guess what strikes me first is that only 22 votes in the final round of the bracket contest but 46 total votes in the poll on the main page.

maybe some didnt care for the final pairing or this format or the front page just gets more views?

i do wonder if the final round was held on the main page would the outcome have been different?

anyways, a very worthy winner imo and a good bit of fun!

thank you crmalcolm for doing this and i look forward to more polls in the future!