Historic Racing Today

[chunder]

I do think there is a good point made here about the MSA

I have long been a critic of their approach to many motorsports. their lack of engagement with the right people, their total lack of effort to do anything decisive, revolutionary at all really.

They sit there, take theri ARDS money, licence fees and do very little it seems to the punters eye. This is of course not true, but if you have no presence then apathy increases.

Look at how they have handled noise situations, no petitions, no real impact from the governing body, quite happy to let tracks be put to the sword with seemingly little help from the body that represents the people that are oftne using the facility.

Look at howthe have allowed the MSA British rally championship to be destroyed, a once one stop shop for all the greats, now doen' even exist and is bettered by the BTRDA series, why? Coz they were inventive, got 1400 cars in there early, big entries, decent fees (for what you get) and are thriving, where both other national rally championships have died.

I for one would applaud someone else getting in there and starting a rival governing body, if you look at how motorsport attracts kids in other countries there are various series that might turn a blind eye to safety compared to us, but certainly get people involved on a budget and on the ladder.

With the MSA it is all about certificates, licences, fees, clubs etc etc. If I want to race short oval racing I buy a car, buy a licence to race that car and turn up, no tests, no medicals, no ARDS test, no entry fees, I might pay to race yes but maybe a tenner.

Yes it's rank amateur, yes you are going round an oval, but you can turn up, have a go, see if you like it, Like Run what yer Brung. Yes it's simple, but you can have a go, you can't do that with any MSA motorsport really.

Stuck in the mud they are, track days have surpassed motorsport as a 4 and 2 wheeled activity, hence why Palmer is quite happy with Bedford, he hasn't got to have as much red tape there and makes a small fortune. As do Rockingham, Prodrive with their "missus bought be a track day in a Lambo" rubbish.

Where are MSA organised track days, where are MSA organised off road motorsport recruitment days, where are they at all?

Sitting on a nice fat retainer that's where.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by midgetman

You're right Paul. Entries are falling across the board and there's no one single cause.

Motor sport is increasingly expensive in time and cash, and there are many oter demands on both such that younger people can't easily justify it.

Increasing "professionalism" is also partly to blame, and the day when you could turn up for a National F Ford Champinship with your Dad and a Transit van are long gone, sadly. Perhaps regs should be introduced banning lorries in raçe paddocks and costs will also reduce.

However, it is simply not true that entries are falling across the board. Cscc keeps getting over 300 cars out over a weekend meeting and takes 120 to Spa each year; Monoposto is thriving in the club single seater world; most series in 750 seem to be doing ok; HSCC generally seem to be doing ok, GT Cup is doing ok after a rocky year some time back, Sports 2000 has revived itself, MSVR own series are doing ok. I wonder what the common denominator is here? Arh, yes - value for money and giving customers what they want.

I am not familiar with every club, but of the many clubs, it's BARC that seems to be struggling most and has lost a fortune (£2M?) over the last 3 years.

Ok, not every series/ club mentioned above is in the historic sector but there are still success stories.

[midgetman]

I'd agree with your last point, there are a number of series doing well. Your BARC comment exactly underlines my point, scratch the surface and it's not as good as we think.

Sorry my fault we got here because I went off on a tangfent. There is little new blood coming into motor sport for various reasons like there is little fresh blood coming into forums. My "Top Tenuous" for the day!

Anyway, JR wanted discussion and we've got it so Job Done

[one-two]

I think there's still plenty of interest in old car racing. As with most things in life, it's more interesting if it's done well. This forum is a funny old thing - a lot of threads are dominated by a small number of folk who have little positive to say about the subject - they can lap Spa in whatever, but the rest of us cheat, exceed track limits, charge too much for race entries/FIA papers/hotdogs/you name it and generally don't know what we're doing or talking about etc. For myself, I used to love JT's pictorial race reports - I can imagine that it was a lot of work, but maybe someone could resuscitate something like that?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

Perhaps regs should be introduced banning lorries in raçe paddocks and costs will also reduce.

MSVR own series are doing ok. I wonder what the common denominator is here? Arh, yes - value for money and giving customers what they want.

Can't quite see your logic with first comment, Andy!

And MSV- Snetterton April 4th, 45 minutes track time on 300, 15 min practice and two races. No membership / registration fees, run wot you brung closed wheel, ANY TYRES, £250..........

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Indeed. Perhaps all historic race cars should be forced to run on Castrol R and doped fuel.

AMEN THAT!

Actually I have decided that the next 360 BBQ will be lite using Castrol R on the coals!!! ...no ifs no buts ...its the perfect complement to a salminela clad sausage or Ecoli wealding burger and bun! "mmm can I have some more of that Redex Ketchup please?"

I also agree...silenced racing is just WRONG (I remember the BC 24 hour at Silverstone a few years ago ....the excitement was the fog!) it was like listening to the Babyliss Boutique 2400w Power Dryer for professionals...quite sad

We do have a laugh the majority of the time...and I am gonna big em up a bit but JT and the legend that is Tim "IM A MISERABLE B***TARD AND PROUD" Falce do a fantastic job on this forum, you lot (moi excluded! ha ) can get all moody every now and then and they do (very fairly) keep ya all in check and let the forum flow which I think is a credit to them (Falce, Turner...the cheques better be in the post gentlemen.I think I've convinced Ryan, but JR's a different story)

Historic MS is the fastest growing sector of Motorsport period, but at this time in the year its all a bit lapse as AS was long ago, RR has now gone and everyone is waiting for the big off?

I love historic Motorsport racing, (but don't think it loves me!), but that doesn't change anything. I believe, in honesty, that too many people want to make money out of motorsport and that just aint gonna happen but thats why Jo etc are feeling the pinch and questioning if (given other interests) its worth it...YES IT IS...please continue Zef the sport would be a poorer place much poorer without the likes of you and the enthusiasts that love it so much, but we need to remember ...its a sport...its a pastime ...its for most a hobby and a great bit of fun....competitive but hopefully not to the extent of sleepless nights...and this forum...should be the same....nothing should be taken so seriously so as to upset those who contribute (be it by posting or just viewing) and surely we are all friends with one common interest...two wheels or four...we love HISTORIC RACING !!!!

ta
C

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I'm not sure anyone is moaning about irreverence in fact I'm pretty sure it was the lack of irreverence that started JR off.

(OT - I just typed "irreverence" above and my tablet corrected it to "birds are nice"! Freudian? Hope Mrs MM doesn't read this)

>>>>>>>>.....motorsport may appear to be in rude health if we look at the number of well attended, high profile events, with often capacity entries of exotic machines - it may even actually be in rude health - I don't know. But if we look at the grass-roots stuff.....then I'm not so sure

You're right Paul. Entries are falling across the board and there's no one single cause. The karting world is pretty sure it can be laid at the MSA's door and non-MSA series are springing up nationwide. They blame the MSA for overregulation in the wrong place, unnecessary expense, and general poor governance. They also lay blame at the door of the win at all costs mentality which ISTR has cropped up here sometimes.

It is being argued that the MSA is increasingly divorced from entry level motor sport. It is being argued that as circuits can easily get their own insurance they need for the MSA is reduced. And indeed some good racing series exist outside of FIA/MSA governance: ovals are an example.

It is being argued that remove the MSA and costs fall, driving standards rise, and entries rise. There is quite a ground swell towards it. The circuits love it because there's no massive beareaucracy to be paid for and they keep 100% of the entry fee instead of sending the money to the MSA. And to be honest it seems to be working. A structure is envisaged - club level races non-MSA, national stuff under their jurisdiction.

Food for thought. Palmersport has the resources...the first circuit to break the ARCO ranks will open the floodgates.

Until Palmersport becomes the new MSA?

The end of Organising clubs and MSV and MSVR running everything?...thats just the MSA based in kent surely ?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

....... MSVR own series are doing ok. I wonder what the common denominator is here? Arh, yes - value for money and giving customers what they want.

or I have a circuit and can cut out the middle men until there is no middle men...then I will have a monopoly the same as before only under a different banner!

[andy97]

Understand your point Claire, but then so do BARC and they have royally screwed it up!

Believe me I don't want an MSVR monopoly and I think that Silverstone, Donington, Rockingham, Mallory, Combe, Anglesey etc should form a loose association as a counter point to MSVR but the other organisations I mentioned don't own circuits and are still doing well.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

Understand your point Claire, but then so do BARC and they have royally screwed it up!

Believe me I don't want an MSVR monopoly and I think that Silverstone, Donington, Rockingham, Mallory, Combe, Anglesey etc should form a loose association as a counter point to MSVR but the other organisations I mentioned don't own circuits and are still doing well.

loose associations become cartels Andy ha ha

CSCC are doing well because they pitch it right, you and I have discussed on many occasion... people want fun and don't want agro, CSCC provide that, simple rules and bulked meetings...affordable racing...it works buff said

HSCC?...mmm not too sure on that one with you...but horses for courses really I think...their rule book excludes many and you are left with the higher end, they hold the permit for the classic for example and that will always be full but it costs a fortune to enter anything in but then again...people like big meetings so they will pay for it but I know a lot of people who are fed up with paying fortunes to race or the red tape stopping them from getting their cars in

750 ? again I would question as to the success story but you may know more than I

The others Im not familiar with but your BARC statement doesn't surprise me

[chunder]

See?

It's all about different clubs doing this, another club doing that?

Who cares?

It SHOULD be about getting as many similar cars be it era, style, year of manufacture or whatever on track to race each other.

Not splitting up countless drivers who race the same thing into seperate championships, based on price, historic accuracy or whatever. Pointless pontificating that drives most race fans crazy.

That is where it is going wrong, and it is down to the my club is better than your club nonsense that most fans detest.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by chunder

See?

It's all about different clubs doing this, another club doing that?

Who cares?

It SHOULD be about getting as many similar cars be it era, style, year of manufacture or whatever on track to race each other.

Not splitting up countless drivers who race the same thing into seperate championships, based on price, historic accuracy or whatever. Pointless pontificating that drives most race fans crazy.

That is where it is going wrong, and it is down to the my club is better than your club nonsense that most fans detest.

totally agree....but you see...the fans DONT pay for the motorsport...the competitor does...and if he doesn't want to race with car type A then he will go and race with car type B or C and THAT is why we are where we are and in truth....this has been done over on this forum sooooooo many times...in fact, most posts that start actually end up at this point:

There are too many races and it costs too much and it doesn't have big crowds!

[gary396]

No the sport doesn't have big crowds but it does have some crowds - with a core of people who watch the sport all over the country and abroad. But b@##!r them, who cares about them?

Sometimes wonder why I bother going. Some owner/drivers (e.g. Mike, Iain to name but two) do appreciate spectator support, others perhaps not so much?

[chunder]

It is clear that club MSA motorsport does not draw a crowd.

Remember Castle Combe maybe still now, they got decent crowds? Why? Was it clver marketing, was it being in the news constantly abut noise?

A lot of tracks get decent crowds. Sad thing is the prices arent always easy to find, people might just THINK its too pricey without looking first.

You can just drive to the coast, or the woods, or go for a walk. When everything else is so expensive.

It;s why magazines dont sell anywhere near as much anymore, people cut out the little luxuries.

Question is, if this country had been booming for decades, do you still think the crowds would be there?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by chunder

It is clear that club MSA motorsport does not draw a crowd.

Remember Castle Combe maybe still now, they got decent crowds? Why? Was it clver marketing, was it being in the news constantly abut noise?

A lot of tracks get decent crowds. Sad thing is the prices arent always easy to find, people might just THINK its too pricey without looking first.

You can just drive to the coast, or the woods, or go for a walk. When everything else is so expensive.

It;s why magazines dont sell anywhere near as much anymore, people cut out the little luxuries.

Question is, if this country had been booming for decades, do you still think the crowds would be there?

I think people don't buy magazines anymore because of the internet

It's like television adverts as well because the internet people have much more choice (de ja vue here)

[Paul D]

Ooerr, missus... we've started something now haven't we?

It is nice to think, when you're out there racing, that maybe, just maybe, the handful of spectators that turn out to club meetings are actually being entertained by your antics. Whether or not that's actually the case in reality is another matter. I have had some positive comments over the years from spectators, so maybe some of them are enjoying it - but then, I do have a fairly, erm... shall we say, flamboyant driving style!

However, it should not be our main concern to entertain spectators. As club racers, we're not being paid to entertain - in fact, we're not being paid at all, so I think the only person we should be worried about entertaining is ourself!

As has already been observed - we don't benefit if spectator numbers increase. Even the clubs don't benefit, so why should we care? Give me a percentage of the gate takings, via reduced costs of racing, and then maybe I'll care what the punters think. Until such time as that happens (which will be never), I'll be there solely to enjoy myself, and if others happen to enjoy watching me do that, then that's OK by me too.

And I still don't know WTF this has to do with falling numbers on the forum!

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by gary396

No the sport doesn't have big crowds but it does have some crowds - with a core of people who watch the sport all over the country and abroad. But b@##!r them, who cares about them?

Sometimes wonder why I bother going. Some owner/drivers (e.g. Mike, Iain to name but two) do appreciate spectator support, others perhaps not so much?

its a strange one…I used to travel widely to watch Historic racing, It all started for me with the AMOC intermarque series, TR register series, Collonade thoroughbreds, anglo american challenge etc…

I then got into TVR's and started spannering at meetings…When I became involved I stopped watching most of the other races…

I guess its very much a personal thing.

When you've started to do it, watching it is less of a draw.

I don't think is is so much that we don't appreciate spectators. Its just that most club racers are very much driving for themselves and not actively trying to put on a show.

I think there are 2 facets of racing..Club acing and Fia semi professional racing, They sort of overlap on a few dates across the year but I think mainly they attract very different enthusiasts…

I am pretty sure footballers aren't doing it for the spectacle either.Trouble is today most do it for the money.

So hopefully you won't take it personally. I like showing genuinely interested folk around the car, I will talk racing with enthusiasts all day but I am in the same vein not there because I am putting on a show..

What I can't stand is the events where a load of shall we say fair weather enthusiasts turn up with wives and squawking kids, mainly only interested in the fairground rides, hot dog stand and hoping they're going to see a prang!!

I personally like football. its something for the general proletariat populus to immerse themselves in whilst we enjoy motorsport.

Don't forget that whilst it may have cost average joe £20 plus his lunch money, most club racers will be down about £1000 for their weekend of fun.

N.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I think people don't buy magazines anymore because of the internet

It's like television adverts as well because the internet people have much more choice (de ja vue here)

I still buy magazines since I find them much easier to hide under the bed.

N

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Until Palmersport becomes the new MSA?

The end of Organising clubs and MSV and MSVR running everything?...thats just the MSA based in kent surely ?

I totally agree and have said so loudly and obnoxiously on karting forums. "Be careful of what you wish for in case you get it."

[zefarelly]

Post of the week

I've got about 15kg of vintage car porn under mine!

Originally Posted by Heightswitch

I still buy magazines since I find them much easier to hide under the bed.

N

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Ooerr, missus... we've started something now haven't we?


...........................in fact, we're not being paid at all, so I think the only person we should be worried about entertaining is ourself!...............And I still don't know WTF this has to do with falling numbers on the forum!

Quite right too!...in fact not only are you not being paid...you are actually PAYING!!! so I think its a hats off to you all round!

With regard to your last comment...I think these three relevent threads have brought this forum right back to life (even if some of it is going over old ground!) so Well done JR if ya still watching!!!

[Al Weyman]

I don't see CSCC as being particularly cheap all said and done especially as they only have one start a weekend not two sprints with two starts and I know a lot of people simply don't want to do 40 minute races, if something goes wrong in that 40 minute race there are no 2nd chances and as for spectators watching it, well trying to follow the race is a nightmare for a start. If you wanted to do a 2nd set of races at a BARC/CTCRC race weekend its much better value.

The Speedfest is a great example of doing it right, I suggest some of you old uns get down there this year it will open your eyes as Southbank will be packed and there will be wall to wall entertainment all day, there is a whole cross section of ages attending and the event has been the biggest sell out at Brands the last few years it has run surpassing BTCC and German Touring cars. This event is sanctioned and supported by NASCAR and could easy run without MSA.

Now as for moving on, Classic Touring Car Racing Club are introducing a new series this season and if response is anything to go by it looks like being very successful, the series is pre 2003 Touring Cars. I did originally ask what's it got to do with classics and was told we had to move on and appeal to a younger audience and this seems to be happening with a few youngsters signing up and building cars. and a pre 2003 car will soon become vintage or historic especially if you are only 15 or 16 at the moment. Admittedly mostly Honda Civic R's but its a start and complements the near stock Pre 2005's started 2 seasons ago and slowly building up. Its a real budget way to go racing and I may well sell up and go the same way as hauling the yanks about is getting hard work at my age.

Several have mentioned Facebook and Twitter. Don't underestimate the effect of this, I don't Tweet so cannot comment but do Facebook. I monitor both the CTCRC's members only Club forum on their site and the Facebook page and trust me as the club forum has massively declined down to about one or two posts a fortnight the Facebook page has approaching 2000 members and is lively, sometimes too lively! Needs a bit of moderation now and then as there is always some cock trying to get in and sell inappropriate items or promoting their motorsport preparation sites but that's all part of the game and a watchful eye soon puts that right!

[The Fat Clerk]

[QUOTE=Paul D;3509345]Ooerr, missus... we've started something now haven't we?
However, it should not be our main concern to entertain spectators. As club racers, we're not being paid to entertain - in fact, we're not being paid at all, so I think the only person we should be worried about entertaining is yourself!

Exactly my take on it, things go in fads be it scrambling (all right Motocross) Touring Cars, F3 they've all had their moments and then waned.

I raced because I enjoyed it, and liked the camaraderie as we went round Europe as one big family, certainly never thought about spectators - well apart from Pau where they were a tad to close for my liking.

[johngee]

I'm about to depart for an MSA seminar for Clerks of Course and Stewards where we will all sit around and talk about ........ nothing of importance because the MSA doesn't realise that Brooklands has changed hands and is now run by Mercedes (and a wonderful facility it is!)
Motorsport is not really changing or even declining. There's still the range of meetings/clubs and circuits to suit all tastes and the popularity of certain events are personal choices and God help us from the invasion of political correctness where our choices and options are dictated by others.
I see and understand and join in with all the critics of the current 'balance of power' but it's better than the alternatives.
So you can now see how I'll vote in May!

[MartinSmith]

I have LOTS of questions for the seminar this weekend!....if Im allowed in! ha ha