Montoya exclusion. Why after 50+ laps????

[Gt_R]

Nah..MrV, JPM's not a threat at all

I don't know about Martin's, but in my place, the commentators have this "info" guy with them who scribbles down interesting/useful information onto notes for the commentators to use.. information such as relevant rules, brief history...past incidents...so that the commentators could use to complement their commentary of on-track action. (well, that's what i saw on TV behind-the-screen prog)

Ok..it's OT, so nevermind

[Kicking-back]

They do have other people feeding them info, yes.

[race aficionado]

Why after 50 laps??
I don't know.
It's a bummer that Juan and Williams got another tough brake.
I should of course add Ralf's unfortunate accident to the list of bad brakes.
I've got two videos here of Juan's INDI adventure:

Now this is for those that say my man Juan is out of shape, watch him run!

http://homepage.mac.com/emeseditoria...heater118.html

Juan runs

and sadly, my man Juan is black flagged after a great performance.

http://homepage.mac.com/emeseditoria...heater117.html

JPM out!

[alesi95]

Didnt Schuey use the 20 min rule to his benefit at the British Gp one year. That one where he won the race by coming into the pits on the last lap (98)?

Also i don't think JP would have been called into the pits as quickly if it was Ross Brawn on the wall rather than Sam Michael.

[Kicking-back]

Agree with you there about Ross Brawn, alesi95.

I hate the man.

Possibly irrationally, but I still do!

[Adam43]

Originally posted by alesi95
Didnt Schuey use the 20 min rule to his benefit at the British Gp one year. That one where he won the race by coming into the pits on the last lap (98)?

Possibly, although the rules were different then.

Originally posted by alesi95
Also i don't think JP would have been called into the pits as quickly if it was Ross Brawn on the wall rather than Sam Michael.

:confused: to what purpose?

[alesi95]

To buy time whilst the team invent a loophole.

[Snrub]

There's no question that some FIA official should have the ability to make calls on clear rule violations, especially since there is no interpretation, simply violation of rule -> punishment.

I think what's more important is that what was the point of penalizing JPM? Yes Williams broke a rule, but it wasn't something that ended up hurting anyone else. It only hurt Williams. Why blindly follow the letter of the rules in every case? Such unreasonable behavious makes the FIA and F1 a laughing stock and appear mickey mouse. The same can be said for the slow response to Ralf's accident and the ambulance taking the full lap instead of U-turning into the pits.

[garcon]

Once again, a discussion about a WILLIAMS infringement (and its admittedly very poor handling by the stewards) is seen by some as some kind of excuse to claim that it's FERRARI who are supposedly the cheats out there!

Get over it, FFS!!!

[Kirk]

Well stated Snrub. There is no excuse really as FIA have always been consistently and predictably inconsistent.

[Kicking-back]

Williams aren't complaining. They've accepted the rule was broken.

[Gt_R]

This takes the cake.

Williams broke the rules, and there are people who actually goes " It only hurt Williams. Why blindly follow the letter of the rules in every case?"

OK...from the next race onwards..i think people only want rules for Ferrari.. If WIlliams or Mclaren broke rules, it's ok if FIA twist it to accomodate them..

Absolutely strange..then we might as well take away the rules...........

Next race, let Williams run a car with turbo...it won't be punished because "it wasn't something that ended up hurting anyone else."

Com'on..be fair.. Williams broke the rule and got penalised fair and square.. the only thing that's worth arguing is what took FIA so long.

P.S could i sense people dragging Ferrari into ANOTHER team's shambles?

[Super Tourer]

I think an overhaul of many of the procedures and a review of penalties and how they are applied is a tad overdue.

Two weeks running JPM has been DSQ for no fault of his own. A driver can't be expected to be culpable for engineering, and administration as well as driving the car!

If we take the brake issue first, IMO the drivers should have had a time penalty applied, to take account of the fact that they MAY have gained a performance advantage. The team should bear the brunt of the penalty, with a fine and points deducted.

Similarly the Indy situation was ridiculous and the team should face a penalty not the driver. JPM gained no advantaged at all, in fact he was disadvantaged by starting from the pitlane.

To teams like Williams the WCC is as, or even more important, than winning the WDC.

Driver should be fuly culpable for driving errors, ignoring flags, etc and the teams should be responsible for cars that fall outside the rules and procedure failings that break regulations.

Two mistakes leading to DSQ on consecutive weekends,is not good for Sam Michael, looks like Williams need to sharpen up a bit as well.

[Gt_R]

Unfortunately,but understandably, FIA deem it necessary to penalise the TEAM, which includes the drivers

Just as in Canada where pity is for Ralf, JPM also had sympathy for losing a 5th place after such a hard day's work. But rules are there for a reason, and the rules were there even before this race....so to break it really leaves no rooms for complains afterwards. A rule can't suddenly be deem "inappropriate" just because a certain team/driver broke it and got punished.

If there are issues with any rules/regulations, it should be brought up and changed before a team broke it. Anyway, the 15s rule is there for safety reasons, so i think harsh at it may be, it's not for no reason.

Tough luck for Sam...the worse 2 weeks for Williams once he took over. zero points..3 DQ...one huge accident...lots of red faces and explanationss.... surely Head is scratching his head.

[Kicking-back]

Super Tourer - the problem with your plan is that you could then run a 5 litre engine, and say it's a car issue which the driver didn't know about!

[Super Tourer]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Super Tourer - the problem with your plan is that you could then run a 5 litre engine, and say it's a car issue which the driver didn't know about!

Very True!

Sadly, it wouldn't be taken in the spirit it was intended and the teams would see it as a loophole atound the rules. However, I still think the FIA need to come up with something better than letter a driver race for 50 lpas then black flag him for an 'offence' that occured in under 20 seconds before the race start!

As I mentioned elsewhere, perhaps this sort of rule infringement could have a penalty applied at the next race.

[N I Tram]

Originally posted by Snrub
There's no question that some FIA official should have the ability to make calls on clear rule violations, especially since there is no interpretation, simply violation of rule -> punishment.

I think what's more important is that what was the point of penalizing JPM? Yes Williams broke a rule, but it wasn't something that ended up hurting anyone else. It only hurt Williams. Why blindly follow the letter of the rules in every case? Such unreasonable behavious makes the FIA and F1 a laughing stock and appear mickey mouse. The same can be said for the slow response to Ralf's accident and the ambulance taking the full lap instead of U-turning into the pits.

Precisely right. This is another situation where only the Constructors' points should be affected - although a fine would be mroe fitting. There seem to be so many silly petty rules in palce at the moment to discourage racing. It's no wonder that viewing figures for things like IRl and MotoGP are booming - they're mercifully free of the stupid beurocracy that drags F1 down.

Surely JPM was 'punished' enough for having to start last? He was only 2 SECONDS late in getting off the grid - who was endangered by it? Surely letting the drivers race through debris and past cars with drivers trapped inside was a bigger safety risk?

[Kicking-back]

The rule about spare cars and the grid being clear is a sensible one.

Williams are not disputing it.

[Adam43]

I think the general thing about this thread was the fact it took so long to notify anyone. And then a long time between the 'under investigation' and the penalty.
As for Ferrari they are not related to this thread, although perhaps ignoring it was the best way to avoid destroying the thread. Thats all irrelevant though!

Yes, the grid clear rule is sensible. Although it is a shame it stops someone racing. Is there something that can be done. Possibly not.

Would it have helped if JPM had stayed in the car until the grid (perhaps putting his hand up) was clear and then got to his spare. Although that leaves him with less time to get ready.

I know he changed to the spare car, but what has been the penalty for being on the grid after the 15s before?

[Kicking-back]

If he had stayed on the grid after the 15 seconds board he would not have been allowed to use the spare.

[Gt_R]

But could it be possible that

(i) the car can't be restarted (within 15s to start of warm up lap) and yellow flags wave..delaying the race start and giving JPM time to work on his car/change spare car.

(2) he stay inside until the cars peel off for the warm up lap, then track marshals push his car to the pitlane and Williams try to restart his race car.

In anycase, caught off guard at that moment, Williams chose to do what they did. But is there an alternative action which could have avoided the problem ?

[Kicking-back]

I don't think so, really.

Why should the start be delayed to give a team/driver time to get their car ready?

The only course of action he could have taken was as you suggest, to stay in the race car, have it pushed into the pits and have the team try to fix it.

[Gt_R]

I thought that race starts can be aborted if a car is stuck on the grid just before the lights go off... Like Panis (or daMatta) in Monaco...

But the Williams problem happened in the warm up lap, so not sure the procedures.

[Kicking-back]

If you stall on the warm up lap, they won't abort it - they'll just send the field off without you.

[Hepatic]

Man, never seen so much rubbish about rules in my life!

the 15 sec rule is there for a very good safety reason. The grid is a dangerous place at the best of times without people running about just before drivers are about to floor it (and they do that on the start of the green flag lap, not just the race start). Has anyone ever thought about the fact that this is a pretty obscure rule, and maybe no one on the grid paid much attention to the time when JPM got out of his car?

I can understand why it took so long to realise a rule may have been broken, but i don't agree to the length of time from investigation starting to the black flag. It did ruin what could have been a good ending to the race, but when rules are broken you have to live with the consequences.

Lets hope that williams get it right at the next race...