San Jose to be cancelled?

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

We shall see with vegas.

My understandings are the city council didn't care much for the outcome of the race nor did the local biz. DOUBT VEGAS WILL HAPPEN!!! CWS lost roughly $7MM and can't afford to. I was at the track was 10X worse logistically than SJ their 1st yr. You actually had to get on a shuttle to go from one side of the track to the other...no options due to railroad tracks. Factor in the wait lines and the race is over. I'll be in Vegas for biz the next week and will find out more as to the continuance.

[Tony Clifton]

Shuttle bus situation was not bad AT ALL. Shuttles ran constanly and even after the race it took me back to the Golden Nugget in a reasonable amount of wait time.
I had read someplace that they were going to have a railroad overpass constructed for the 2008 race (if it happens now).
As of 30 days ago there was not construction equipment near or at the grandstand bleachers, (I stayed at the Nugget last month).

I hope Vegas 2008 happens, from what I am reading here it looks like it is a "no go" event.

[luke]

Well Tony, many people here think they are in the 'know' but we'll see what happens...

[Hazza]

The only thing I know is I'm gonna get my self some goddamn breakfast.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by NorCal

CWS lost roughly $7MM and can't afford to.

Did ChampCar have a financial interest in the race ?

[indycool]

Hard to tell, D.R.T. Promoter in Vegas was DDB Ventures, headed by Dale Jensen and Brad Yonover. There may have been a co-promote or low sanction fee for the first year or whatever, but it's likely no one will ever know.

The $7 million loss is the LOWEST figure I've heard on the loss there, it's by the promoter and that had to be one reason Phoenix was canceled (same promoter).

But there's construction going on in the area of this year's course, the casinos have let the city know they don't want the race back, certainly the promoter doesn't want to take a bath again, the entire promoter race staff has been let go, Jim Freudenberg (the former or current GM) has been talking to the Thomas and Mack Center about doing it and that's on the UNLV campus and impossible, etc., etc.

[Fogelhund]

It would also appear as though the site of future Toronto events might be in question. The event organizers were looking at cheaper venues, and studied moving the race to Downsview airport, but decided against it as it wouldn't save any money. Not to mention it is in a residential neighbourhood, and would make a poor track.

There were some local rumours earlier this year, that Mosport was being looked at, which would make a great deal more sense to me. I've been to the Toronto Molson Indy only twice, even when CART was my favourite series, as frankly I thought the venue was poor from a spectator standpoint.

Even though CCWS is a shadow of what this series once was, I might be inclined to go to a Mosport race.

[Dutton]

The Toronto track, from a configuration perspective, is quite decent for a North American street track. I would rather it stayed there than go to another street course (unless it is an amazing configuration, but this seems unlikely).

HOWEVER, your Mosport suggestion...and the rumours it was being looked at. Oooohhh...if...if.... Twin it with the Mosport ALMS event.

I just might burst with sheer orgasmic joy if that happened!

[Fogelhund]

There is no room for it at the ALMS event at all. In addition, there is no reason for the track to do it either, as the track is pretty busy as is. If Mosport was up for it, CCWS would likely be a stand alone.

[Dutton]

Well, I would be willing for them to bump something off the weekend schedule for it.

I would just want them to combine because I can only do one trip to Mosport a year.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Well, I would be willing for them to bump something off the weekend schedule for it.

I would just want them to combine because I can only do one trip to Mosport a year.

I can appreciate that. Then CC would have to do the event for no sanction fee, and I'm not sure they would.

[D.R.T.]

In they are after stable North American venues then I think they could be.

[indycool]

More San Jose......


http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6879896?nclick_check=1

[Leighton Irwin]

Don't forget Dr. Panoz owns Mosport and he does have slight tie in with CC.
Trouble would be maintaining the week long party in TO. if the race moved to Mosport.
You would come awful close to a 1 min. lap at Mosport so would CC want chicanes? (The ALMS cars are in the 1.05 range.) There isn't much run off at 3 and no room for much more due to the proximity of a public road. The chute (as we old timers call it) turn 4 would be daunting in a CC and the braking into 5 something to see.
Many years ago I could take 4 flat out hitting about 134 (and bottoming out right under my --s) at the creek just before starting uphill into 5. That is the average speed for a lap today. I expect 4 is taken at over 155 today.
That said it would be a fantastic race with the average speed close to 140 mph.

[luke]

Would anyone say Mosport is safe for fast open wheel? I know it has ALMS but some of the run of does look a bit small perhaps for an open wheeler.

[Dutton]

Well, they run open-wheel support races. Not quite the same speeds I admit.

Quite honestly, from the modern POV, I would say Mosport is dangerous in just about every way. It is the fact there is not a lot of run-off, not much in the way of barriers/fences, and total spectator-freedom, that makes it such an incredible place.

If the choice was between CC going there but changing things, or CC not going there at all, well, for sure, it is an absolute no-brainer than that the latter option should be employed.

Mosport is just lovely and shiny how it is.

[Fogelhund]

How much runoff is there at a street race?

Would Mosport be safer if you lined it with concrete blocks at the side of the track?

[Dutton]

Indeed, but the sheer speed of Mosport is what makes it dangerous, plus, generally, at street races there is not far to the walls and the angle of impact is mostly harmless.

At Mosport...generally you will flying off at huge speed, without far to go to impact.

Just to be clear, I certainly was not meaning to be criticising Mosport. I feel the absolute opposite about the place. I don't actually think Mosport has too little run-off (it just has what is necessary, as opposed to the ten miles that is in vogue these days).

[Fogelhund]

Cars typically go off at 1, 2, 5 and 8. Both 2 and 8 have quite a bit of runoff room... 5 isn't very quick, unless you really screw it up. 1 is quick, but not high speed, and there is a bit of room there as well.

Certainly if you compare Toronto to Mosport, the cars do 190 mph at Toronto, with no runoff.

How is that this track is safe for ALMS at a Q speed of 1:05, and wouldn't be for CC at 1:01-1:02? Really, I think the safety issue is being overplayed here. The track is certified FIA Level 2, which is where CC falls into, so the FIA thinks it is safe enough....

[Leighton Irwin]

10 has no run off but is quite slow (it actually is about a 100 degree turn) Run off could be built in there if needed. Same with 9 but again probably not needed. 4 is dauntingly fast without much runoff but people do not seem to go off there much anymore. In the old days more than one driver ended up in the creek that flows under the track at the bottom of the chute. The entrance to 3 would be the biggest problem. It is a turn that has several lines that work so there are quite a few passes attempted there and if the cars touch at the beginning of the turn they go off before the runoff starts.
It is now my favourite place to watch as I can sit in my truck and watch or just take a few steps to the fence. My knees don't work very well (too many cold race shops and too many years pretending to be a goalie) so I don't walk very well and cannot stand still for more than a few minutes.
However as long as TO has a race I cannot see Mosport getting one.
I do understand that TG has sniffed around but nothing came of it.

[indycool]

It's hard to tell the direction:

Laguna Seca to San Jose and back to Laguna Seca
Montreal to Mont Tremblant
LVMS to downtown Las Vegas (and I might add, a big ? for '08)
Denver to history
Phoenix stillborn
Road America on and off and on
China, well, who knows...or cares?
Ansan, stillborn
Street race discussions for Manchester, England and Hannover, Germany to 2 European permanent circuits and trying to be four European permanent circuits.
Houston ??????????????
Portland ??????????????? (only if needed to fill out the schedule...but it's been continuously needed.)

[Tim Northcutt]

Back in the late 1970s I believe that CART or USAC raced at Mosport on the road course....

I love that track!!!

[indycool]

I believe it was '68 USAC at Mosport and also '78, the latter the same year it went to Brand's Hatch and Silverstone. In the late '60s, it also ran Mont Tremblant one of those years, Brainerd, Kent, Wash., Sears Point, Riverside, something called Stardust Raceway in Vegas and something called Castle Rock in Colorado. It was a road-course "splurge" for a couple years there.

[Fogelhund]

USAC also ran in 77' at Mosport.

[Purist]

Stardust was a fast 3.0-mile road course outside of Las Vegas (Can-Am ran there). Continental Divide Raceway was a 2.8-mile road course at Castle Rock, Colorado (looked similar in plan form to the Osterreichring).

The actual speed at any given point on Mosport for the champ cars would not be that much different from the LMPs. And since the sportscars are heavier, I'd have to say it's likely you would have higher impact forces in the LMPs than you would with the CART machinery. Therefore, I don't really see any explanation for why CART couldn't reasonably run Mosport as-is.