Ff1600

[JR Ewing]

No the ACB10s are better alround tyres and far more consistent. We used to spend a fortune on Dunlops and always had to bed them in while testing because half of them were ****!

The only thing I don't like about the Avons is they're really awful in the wet and the car is so unstable compared to say a Zetec. In fact driving a Zetec in the wt is a bit like driving an FF1600 on ACB10s in the dry...

[formulafordster]

Surely then Kestenbaum is not a quick as every one says, because as far as i know he hasn't broken into the 48s this year

[JR Ewing]

He's probably rusty - he's been away in older, less able classic cars - it takes seat time to get it back. I can assure you that Stuart is very, very quick, although he is getting older so who knows. BTW, I am not him. I think he hold the class B record in an FF84, something around 48.4, doesn't he? The Reynards 87-92 were identical chassis but they were all based on the 83FF whne VD produced a car that was as pleasing to look at as an Allegro Vanden Plas, had the same top speed as a Lada Riva and handled like a Maxi (on full tanks).

Mind you, you could convert a 2010 Zetec or whatever car but still won't beat jamie Spece's Quicksilver special from 1992.

[formulafordster]

I don't know he may do, people tell me hes one of the quickest, but he seems a bit lackluster this year, don't know why, he finnishes normally 4th or 5th. I take it you are refering to the RF84!

[formulafordster]

Ive never heard of that, what is it?

[JR Ewing]

No the RF84 was a jewel compared the RF83. You don't see many 83s around as they were all buried to avoid offending people (irate drivers mainly). Funnily enough Everyman Racing School has a fleet of the old dogs...

Quicksilver were special American engines imported by the Swift works team in the early 90s. They weren't allowed to touch or even see the internals - a slight oil leak or an over rev, back on the plane they went!

[JR Ewing]

I'm going to bed now but, in Class B if you follow any advice some like Stuart K gives you you will be on the right track.

[formulafordster]

Thankyou, I must sleep too!

[JNWRF01]

I do think people are missing the point about "kents". I raced in 90-92 in FF1600 - in the 92 meeting at Mallory the slowest time was a high 48! You were on the resereve list if you were in the 49s. I appreciate the top boys were running very strong engines, but even my leased scholar (£1/mile) was good enough for mid grid. I just think the level of competition means that you will never see those times again. give you another idea - pole at Cadwell was a 1.32 (warren hughes) - I qualified (my first ever race) in the 34s and was pretty much last. i am sure a 34 would walk the race nowadays. If you put this year's FF Zetec runners into kent cars those times would come down again.

Also, the zetec conversion busines. firstly, when I came back racing last year I looked at kents - they are way too expensive. You can buy a good 2000 car (ie Steve Magill's is the ex-franchitti chassis) for nothing and convert it for a bit more than JR says (you need to change sump/enginve cover/wheels/pipes/looms/exhaust etc etc). But why? Run in Zetecs - they have proper tyres (you can buy good 10 lap old ex-national slicks for about £30 a tyre), engines are long life (same rebuld costs) good grids in the SFFC and getting better in NFFC and you can buy all the spares from the big teams for buttons. The accident costs are the same as an FF - the only rip off is the nosecones which are £600 each. I think you must be mad to enter FF1600 because you think its cheaper!

BTW I run in SFFC

[JR Ewing]

Mallory 92 times were on Dunlops!!

Really, what does, say, an RF01 lower front wishbone cost?

[JNWRF01]

about £280 (i think!) can;t believe that its that different in price as contruction is basically the same process as a 91 wishbone. However, there is a man in Aussie - who happens to come over to the UK a bit, who may make them cheaper...!!! Aussie $ is pretty good versus the pound !!

[JR Ewing]

An RF90/91 bottom front is about £105.

You must have too much money - lol.

There is too much costly bodywork on a Zetec, sidepods etc, and the spares cost a fortune compared to FF1600s.
A major problem for someone with a trailer is carting around slicks/ spare slicks/ wets etc. At leats in FF1600 you have one set on the car and one spare set to be carried around for wets/damage replacement.

The only thing wrong with FF1600 is the engine costs.

What we should have is FF1600 chassis with a controlled 1600cc Zetec engine. Cheap and mega!!

[JNWRF01]

...from Van Diemen??? That is bl00dy cheap for essentially what is the same item.

I hear what ur saying about the tyres - i wish we had one type only - they should have based the zetec formula around an engine that fits all chassis - or dare we say it - scrap Zetec and move back to kents and single tyres. The only way FF will be the way is used to be is to have the same formula at national/european level as at club level. It will never happen tho'..

Shame, its still the best entry level formula..

[JR Ewing]

1) VD don't do spares for those older cars. There are a few providers which amkes more of a competitive market for prices (which are still fixed). A w/b costs around £15 to make, max.

2) 'Apparently' Zetec will end after 2004 to be replaced by a new Ford engine. At that stage FF1600 will still be strong but Zetec will be perilously weak and will be like the BARC Renault series...

[JNWRF01]

could you send me a private email with details of these guys who can maek wishbones .... tkx

I had heard that about zetecs - hopefully we will get some clarification from ford before the 2004 festival!!

[edmse]

Firstly it is great to see so many people passionate about FF1600. I am going to reply to this thread and comment on various issues that people have mentioned - please don't feel that I am attacking any individuals, merely stating my opinion as one with experience of FF1600 and a true enthusiast having grown up in the scene and followed it all my life!

Oh and by the way I am Ed Moore. It would be great if those participating in this thread let everybody know there names - I hate not knowing who people are in these forums! We all share the same interests after all!

Sorry to have to start with you JR EWING! I believe that FF1600 is still pretty strong, the Southern series was quite weak already last season and the King of Kent’s entry for Silverstone on Monday is strong, despite clashing with Combe. Any minor downturn is surely due to the economy - entries in many other classes have suffered much more than FF1600.

FORMULAFORDSTER - the newer cars do not cost £15K or even £13K (I know having spent a month converting one). Also you do not need anywhere near £20K to compete for a Championship. My Father and I run my car in our spare time and thus our running costs are very low compared to running with a team - for us this is much of the fun of racing.

I personally like racing against the old hands - in my opinion it gives the racing more kudos and respect in the motorsport environment. It is good for youngsters to be able to try and beat fairly well known quick drivers.

Also Formulafordster I would say that the majority of people are running legal engines - you don't need to cheat to be fast and I am sure someone like Neil Bold/Scholar/Auriga would never turn out illegal engines. To go quickly you need a good legal motor, well sorted car, good tyres and a talented driver.

In terms of competitiveness of older vs. newer cars then just look at the lap times achieved so far. Wills and myself have not moved the goalposts. Last year my fastest official time at Combe in a '92 Swift was 71.9 sec (pole for last August I think) and so far in my '00 VDiemen it is 62.6 sec (fastest lap last time out). The new car is very good and lovely to drive but the times tell the real story! Gavin would still be winning in his 92 Swift and in fact he was beaten twice last weekend by Peter Daly's '89 Reynard (as I had been after being on pole at Silverstone the other week!).

Also Formulafordster the cars are well within the legal requirements for track width as printed in the official regulations that haven't changed for years. Converted ex Zetec Vectors are wider still.

Don't forget that this whole ting about ex Zetec cars has been around since Zetec came into being in 1993. For example Swift SC93F's are ex Zetec chassis, as are 94's, 95's, 96's, 97's etc. At Combe even Roly Hamblin's 1996 Swift is an ex Zetec car and the works assisted Ray I drove in 1997 was based totally on the Zetec design.

Van Diemen spares for the newer cars are dear, but there is so much stuff around now that it's easy to get 2nd hand and pattern parts cheaply.

In reply to JR Ewing again (sorry!) regarding Mallory in the mid 90's compared to these days, I did the odd meeting back in '96 and '97 and generally was faster than the regular runners there, winning races, setting poles and fastest laps. I won there twice last year and have to say that the level of competition at the front was pretty similar. Although maybe I am slower than I was after my break from racing!

Once again sorry for singling out the odd persons postings, but I felt this was the only way to offer my opinion.

At the end of the day racing is about competition and fun. I didn't intend on buying a '00 chassis this winter, but after seeing them advertised cheaply felt that they offered great value and look fantastic. I was always of the opinion that it was good that Jon Adlam had bought new cars and that this was supporting FF1600, otherwise the category would eventually simply become another historic series.

Hope to see some of you on Monday – do come and say hello.

Ed Moore

[edmse]

Oh just one other thing.

The Mallory Class B lap record I think is held by an old Karting mate of mine called Gary Powell. If my memory is correct I think it is around 49.5 set in September 1996, the same day I set the fastest race lap at 48.49 (again I think!). Stuart Kestenbaum doesn't hold that record, fine driver that he is.

[JR Ewing]

I don't think we're disagreeing on a whole lot there Ed. I'm just concerned at being less numbers for such a good formula.

We seem to agree that a converted RF00 is not necessarily quicker than a good 90-95 car etc.

While a lot of Swift 93-95 cars are converted Zetecs, they were really designed as Kents and the designs altered to suit Zetecs whereas later cars (roughly 96 on) have the design basis in the Zetec formula. Also with the change of sidepod regs for all FFs from 1996 on I don't really think you can compare a SC93 with an RF00...

My opinion is that the Midlands series is not quite as strong now as it was back in 98 when you had the new Ray. Good drivers that they may be now (probably Gavin most of all), I think Mike Bennett and Russell Dixon from that period were consistently quicker - but that's just my personal feelings of course. Maybe it's just that there was a bit more strength in depth back then when now only really Wills and Daly are right on it?

Do you think you'd go quicker back in the Swift you've been trying to sell fro quite a while now? If so, why not return to it and flog off the RF00??

[JR Ewing]

As soon as I saw Gary powell I knew that was right!

49.44 in Sept 96 in a Reynard 84. Pale yellow I think it was? (and in need of new bodywork!) The car was still running in the late 90s with a driver who got to about 52 sec laps - the one I mentioned well above who moaned about bent engines!

[edmse]

Haha I knew I was right about Gary - he and I raced Karts in the early 90's and he was a good guy. He was run by Colin Thorpe - another nice chap!

And yes we are in agreement about a good few things.

A chap is supposed to be buying the car next week - but there seem to be a few timewasters present, so if he brings me the money then all well and good, but I am not despereate to sell - Autosport keep putting the ad in, I only paid for 3 weeks!

My new RF00 is far too pretty to sell. My pace is more dependent on the time I have available to prep my car - I am far too busy with the business, as is Dad with the Farm. Need a good new helper - any offers?!

We even have a 1980 Swift DM3 that is an ace car in Classic FF1600 that if we had time we would wheel out. It's the last car my Dad made.

Both Peter Daly and I were well below Mike Bennett's Silverstone Int. lap record the other week and the only times I struggled with Russell Dixon was when sorting out the all new Ray which was in 1997, once sorted it was easy! (not wishing to sound big headed but that is the truth).

Perhaps the strength in depth is down a little, but it will come back I am sure.

Here's hoping for a little good fortune on Monday!

[JR Ewing]

I raced in that race at Silv Int'l back in 1998 and it rained like a monsoon in the morning and was still a bit damp in the race so I should think you did beat his time...

[edmse]

It was hard to though!

So go on JR who are you? We must have met at some point?

The 1997 Silverstone National lap record is still in tact I think?

[JR Ewing]

Actually I think I was wrong. It p*ssed down in Friday testing and on the Sunday when Jos Vertsappen did some demo runs in the Stewart-Ford but Saturday when we ran was the only good day. The track was very green though and Bennett won easily although I do now remember a highlight being his awning collapsing in the paddock...

That was the first ever FF1600 race on the Int'l track and I don't know how that new lap record has stood up since but I always thought he was a damned quick driver.

I can't say who I am due to having upset a few people on here before...

[edmse]

No worries JR! If you are around at a meeting when I am please do come and say hello - I promise not to reveal your true identity - I am sure we could both bore Britain with facts and figures about FF1600 over the last few years! That would be before my Father staretd on about stories of the good old 70's, "heats, finals, cheap entry fees, racing on a Saturday, Sunday and then on a Monday all over a Bank Holiday weekend at different circuits!"

I am not one to come onto these forums often, only when someone draws something to my attention and I feel strongly about something and I am extremely passionate about FF1600! I have seen the consequences of what can happen on web forums, so always am careful before I press send. Already someone has *****ed about me on another thread!

Right must dash and all the best to all!

Ed

[formulafordster]

Hello every one again, Ed you have made some good points, particularly about the series evolving and not becoming a historic championship. It thought be an Idea to have pre 87, pre 93 and post 93 classes in future? just so as 88-93 cars do not become worthless in years to come, because regardless of speed people will always want newer cars. What really p*!?#s me off, bearing in mind the close racing we have had this year in FF1600, is that people ignore it and go and race ARP, MG midgets and formula mini super something or other!, or formula Vee!! I mean I know i am biased, but with close competitive racing that does not cost the earth, Why the **** does anyone want to go and race anything else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!