The Current State of IndyCar

[bjohnsonsmith]

It's not a patch on this Reynard 2Ki, driven here by Cristiano da Matta.

I'd really like to know, what Castroneves, Dixon, Franchitti, TK, RHR and Alex Tagliani make of the DW12 compared to a car like the Reynard 2Ki?

[JagtechOhio]

Here's a look at the current state of affairs.
Perhaps ramp to ramp jumps will be included at future events.
Or maybe a big swinging pendulum you have to avoid, like in miniature golf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPkq...embedded#at=11

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Peat

22 years of development, and er....... oh

I actually think the Tyrell likes like arse compared to the Penske. It looks flimsy and weak, the Penske looks tough.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Marcus666

Speaking of the Champ Car situation back in 2007, It looked IMO better on "paper" than what Indycar actually is today. What was the final straw to the series, the departure of Allmendinger and Bourdais? Did the cost of the Panoz chassis escalate through the roof?

Ironically though, both Bourdais and Allmendinger have been in Indycar this year and been nothing but mid-fielders that no one gave a damn about. Which doesn't say much for the Champ Car 2007 field.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Here's a look at the current state of affairs.
Perhaps ramp to ramp jumps will be included at future events.
Or maybe a big swinging pendulum you have to avoid, like in miniature golf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPkq...embedded#at=11

Thrills and spills.

I thought the pendulum might have been a subtle reference to Edgar Allan Poe.

[JagtechOhio]

Yes, and a location at pit entry would be most apropos.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Yes, and a location at pit entry would be most apropos.

Very good, .

[nickyf1]

When form follows function, it looks good. I think F1 cars look great, as do modern F3 cars. They're built to do a certain thing by competing manufacturers, not look good, and they look all the better for it.

The DW12 puts aesthetic before function, and looks all the worse for it. Most spec series take 'artistic license' with their cars, which is expected.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

When form follows function, it looks good. I think F1 cars look great, as do modern F3 cars. They're built to do a certain thing by competing manufacturers, not look good, and they look all the better for it.

The DW12 puts aesthetic before function, and looks all the worse for it. Most spec series take 'artistic license' with their cars, which is expected.

Aesthetic before function? What's aesthetic about the DW12? As for function, it's badly designed compared to the Lolas, Reynards and Swifts of the late '90s. Those cars didn't have a balance issue that required a lead weight to be stuck in the nose.

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Ironically though, both Bourdais and Allmendinger have been in Indycar this year and been nothing but mid-fielders that no one gave a damn about. Which doesn't say much for the Champ Car 2007 field.

To be fair, Bourdais has been on the podium three times recently, and is still pretty popular... but yes, definitely not as popular as the Helios and TK's.

[Paradise City]

I think both the modern f1 car and the DW look awful. What's nice on the Indycar looks awful on the F1 car and vice versa, IMO. With the contemporary F1 car, 20 or so cars with frowning, gaping yawns flying past in sequence looks like high speed scaffolding what with that horrific raised nose.

The old Tyrrell looks good. It's small, nimble and agile and yes fragile. Even just visually it harks back to an era when cars actually broke down on reliability grounds.

Anyway. AJA has his"narcotics" redemption story and Helios is a giggling spiderman that climbs fences. We just need to convince Franchitti to do backflips every time he gets out of his car and Will Power giving acidic wisecracks from his brothers comedy routine and this series might just turn heads again...

[Marcus666]

I agree with the guy above, F1 cars have IMO looked like pure **** since 2009 (probably the 50th time im saying this) and Indycars have been looking like **** since 2012.

In F1 the cars had the best look back in 2004-2005-2006 (with no wingtips and extra aerodynamic devices).

I think the IR-05 looked good in oval setup but horrible in road course setup. Too bad the former Champ Car teams couldn't adapt their DP01s to Indycar regulations in 2008. That car looked so good in road course setup.

I wonder why Indycar announced aero packages for ovals ONLY, I mean, You could turn a RB8 into a RB9 by replacing minor things (diffuser, wings etc.).

[Lagunaseca_4life]

I honestly didnt like the last Indy car, the dw12 has increased my interest in indycars again.i find them easier to watch.i just don't like the rear bumpers but that's really it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

I honestly didnt like the last Indy car, the dw12 has increased my interest in indycars again.i find them easier to watch.i just don't like the rear bumpers but that's really it.

For all it's aesthetic sins, the DW12 is a ground effect car, with basically 50% of the downforce created by the undertray and the rest by the wings. It's predecessor, the Dallara IR5,was flat bottomed.

I wonder how the Dallara IR5 would have coped with the chicane at Baltimore?

[Marcus666]

It was too bad Indycar didn't choose Swift as chassi maker. Look at this beauty:



Reminds me a little of those 1994-2001 CART chassis.

[Birddog07]

I loved the Lola concepts. But I'd like to see those huge side pods replaced, or at least that ugly rear valance behind the wheels. It's an insult to open wheel racing, the rear of the car may as well be closed in body work.

Maybe people will finally start making body work and it won't look as ugly. Would love to see more engines on board too.

[Gingers4Justice]

I'm still surprised that there's debates about the DW12.

Not everyone's going to like it but it's what we've got.

I completely lost interest in Indycar when all the cars were Dallara-Hondas. The cars looked ages and I found it hard to get excited about the Indy 500 being a one-make challenge.

I'm slowly getting back into the series and I personally think the cars sound great. I'm not a full convert to the appearance yet but it's something different and the DW12 might look beautiful in 20 years time. Who knows?

I know it's never going to happen but I'd give my right arm for IndyCar to race at Rockingham.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I'm still surprised that there's debates about the DW12.

Not everyone's going to like it but it's what we've got.

I completely lost interest in Indycar when all the cars were Dallara-Hondas. The cars looked ages and I found it hard to get excited about the Indy 500 being a one-make challenge.

I'm slowly getting back into the series and I personally think the cars sound great. I'm not a full convert to the appearance yet but it's something different and the DW12 might look beautiful in 20 years time. Who knows?

I know it's never going to happen but I'd give my right arm for IndyCar to race at Rockingham.

I'm not surprised. Though not the root cause of the current state of IndyCar, people do think it's a contributing factor.

I went to both Rockingham 500s in 2001 and 2002; awesome stuff. Those Reynards and Lolas were in a league of their own.

IndyCar should look at Rockingham as a potential race in Europe.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not surprised. Though not the root cause of the current state of IndyCar, people do think it's a contributing factor.

I went to both Rockingham 500s in 2001 and 2002; awesome stuff. Those Reynards and Lolas were in a league of their own.

IndyCar should look at Rockingham as a potential race in Europe.

I'm both naïve and British, which probably explains my surprise at the debate. As far as I'm concerned, IndyCar is as interesting now as it ever has been since I first started watching US open wheel racing since the first Rockingham race. We're obviously nowhere near CART levels but it's got me interested far more than the IRL ever did.

So what is it I'm enjoying that everyone else isn't? My guess is that the mis-management of open wheel racing and its decline combined with the rise and rise of NASCAR has meant that whatever IndyCar does, it's perceived as inadequate. Is that accurate?

As for Rockingham, I can't really see the teams being persuaded to do it. Besides that, Northamptonshire is an exceedingly short-sighted county that barely sees the benefit of the Grand Prix so I'm not holding my breath for anyone with the vision to make it happen coming along any time soon.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Quote Gingers4Justice.
I'm both naïve and British, which probably explains my surprise at the debate. As far as I'm concerned, IndyCar is as interesting now as it ever has been since I first started watching US open wheel racing since the first Rockingham race. We're obviously nowhere near CART levels but it's got me interested far more than the IRL ever did.

So what is it I'm enjoying that everyone else isn't? My guess is that the mis-management of open wheel racing and its decline combined with the rise and rise of NASCAR has meant that whatever IndyCar does, it's perceived as inadequate. Is that accurate?

As for Rockingham, I can't really see the teams being persuaded to do it. Besides that, Northamptonshire is an exceedingly short-sighted county that barely sees the benefit of the Grand Prix so I'm not holding my breath for anyone with the vision to make it happen coming along any time soon. Quote


There's no doubt the racing is better but that's got a lot to do with the car. The DW12 is a ground effect car, similar to the Lolas and Reynards of the CART era but no way as well designed. The IR5 was flat bottomed and was designed to produce the awful pack racing that was a feature of IndyCar racing, when it was called the Indy Racing League; the series is still run by the IRL.

I don't know if inadequate is the right world to describe the series but the management has certainly been inadequate and there's been a lack of foresight. Hopefully with Derrick Walker on board a lot of this can be rectified.

One of the biggest problems facing teams is the cost of the car, which is now higher than originally intended, surprise surprise, as well as having to buy spares from Dallara, which are more expensive than going to a 3rd party. The overall increase in costs has meant the introduction of aero-kits has been delayed.

It would be nice to see a race again at Rockingham but realistically I don't see it happening.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not surprised. Though not the root cause of the current state of IndyCar, people do think it's a contributing factor.

Some people, a small minority. As you say its not the root cause and no one has gone on record and said that they are now not watching because of an opinion on the way the cars look.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Some people, a small minority. As you say its not the root cause and no one has gone on record and said that they are now not watching because of an opinion on the way the cars look.

A poll has never been conducted, so we'll never know whether the minority is small or not, or if indeed it is the majority. True no one has gone on record but there is the old adage, 'people vote with their feet'.

[Paradise City]

You don't need a poll and a poll wouldn't be representative as its a psychological thing that most people don't think too much about. It's common sense when you think it over. A series featuring duplicates that are chubby and plastic looking most people won't return to it. It's not a difficult thing to deduce.

It's different if you have a captured audience like F1 and NASCAR but Indycar barely has an audience. You need to turn heads to reengage the audience and the new Dallara life raft doesn't do it.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A poll has never been conducted, so we'll never know whether the minority is small or not, or if indeed it is the majority. True no one has gone on record but there is the old adage, 'people vote with their feet'.

People do vote with their feet - and there hasnt been a huge turn around since the DW12 was introduced so there is your answer. Using a sample audience of this forum, its definitely not a majority and unfortunately a few people in the forum cant see beyond such a superficial argument.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

People do vote with their feet - and there hasnt been a huge turn around since the DW12 was introduced so there is your answer. Using a sample audience of this forum, its definitely not a majority and unfortunately a few people in the forum cant see beyond such a superficial argument.

There hasn't been a turn around at all, in fact it's the opposite, fewer people are watching and the result is TV audiences are down and this will impact on TV advertising revenue, which the series sorely needs.