[BTCC] 2020 the long wait is over, BTCC Rd1/2/3 Donington Pk

[RS67]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Me neither. I assume it's due to BTCC's 'manufacturer' teams and 'professional' drivers, or at least the perception that such things exist.

I reality we can't expect non-motorsport fans and random government departments to understand the nuisances of different series.

Which has far greater TV coverage, British GT/F3 or BTCC?
Which has far greater track side spectators British GT/F3 or BTCC?

In both cases the BTCC has a much higher profile and quite easy to see why it would be classified as Elite and be treated differently.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

" We are clarifying the position for other BTCC events on MSV circuits and will communicate an update soon."
Seems clear enough to me, perhaps the misinterpretation is all yours.
I would assume MSV will be lobbying the decision and with TOCA and MSA trying to come to an agreement with the government that will allow spectator attendance. As other motorsport events have been taking place and are continuing, A cap on the number of spectators down to an more manageable level similar to what other events attract, could see a lift on the current decision.

Why do people think MSV (as a business) will be treated any differently to the rest of sport in the UK?

TOCA have continuously stated that they are not intending to interfere with Govt guidance, and will abide by their regulations.
MSA (which is now Motorsport UK): 'Currently, the Motorsport UK guidance does not provide for spectators'

If the whole of professional football is not looking any earlier than October for a minimal return of spectators, personally I think the Govt have got much more pressing things to consider than pleasing one company's wish to go against the rest of the country. The only hope (as I see it) is for a BTCC event to be included in the pilot events for spectator return. Although with cricket already included in the pilots, it's difficult for motorsport to put a valid case forward.

'The Government has announced that a small number of sporting events will be used to pilot the safe return of spectators through late July and early August – with a view to reopen competition venues for sports fans, with social distancing measures in place, from October 2020.

The events have been carefully selected to represent a range of sports and indoor and outdoor spectator environments. They are expected to include two men’s county cricket friendly matches - such as Surrey v Middlesex at The Oval on 26-27 July - the World Snooker Championship at Sheffield’s Crucible Theatre from 31 July, and the Glorious Goodwood horse racing festival on 1 August. There are also likely to be further pilot events for other sports, in order to build up to and prepare for the full, socially distanced return of sporting events from October 1, 2020. '

The decision has nothing to do with the amount of fans either. Elite sports that attract spectator figures typically below 5,000 are affected in the same way.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

Which has far greater TV coverage, British GT/F3 or BTCC?
Which has far greater track side spectators British GT/F3 or BTCC?

In both cases the BTCC has a much higher profile and quite easy to see why it would be classified as Elite and be treated differently.

Why is there a thinking that TV coverage and spectator numbers is part of the decision for being an elite sport?

There are sports that have next to zero TV coverage in the UK, and have spectator figures in the hundreds that are 'elite' sports.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why do people think MSV (as a business) will be treated any differently to the rest of sport in the UK?

TOCA have continuously stated that they are not intending to interfere with Govt guidance, and will abide by their regulations.
MSA (which is now Motorsport UK): 'Currently, the Motorsport UK guidance does not provide for spectators'

If the whole of professional football is not looking any earlier than October for a minimal return of spectators, personally I think the Govt have got much more pressing things to consider than pleasing one company's wish to go against the rest of the country. The only hope (as I see it) is for a BTCC event to be included in the pilot events for spectator return. Although with cricket already included in the pilots, it's difficult for motorsport to put a valid case forward.

'The Government has announced that a small number of sporting events will be used to pilot the safe return of spectators through late July and early August – with a view to reopen competition venues for sports fans, with social distancing measures in place, from October 2020.

The events have been carefully selected to represent a range of sports and indoor and outdoor spectator environments. They are expected to include two men’s county cricket friendly matches - such as Surrey v Middlesex at The Oval on 26-27 July - the World Snooker Championship at Sheffield’s Crucible Theatre from 31 July, and the Glorious Goodwood horse racing festival on 1 August. There are also likely to be further pilot events for other sports, in order to build up to and prepare for the full, socially distanced return of sporting events from October 1, 2020. '

The decision has nothing to do with the amount of fans either. Elite sports that attract spectator figures typically below 5,000 are affected in the same way.

No one is saying MSV are looking to be treated any differently.
They have already been holding race meetings and there hasn't been any attempt to stop them from doing so.
Professional football is a different entity, not only have you got the pinch points at entry and exit, you are also sitting close to others, just because the stadiums have got a large hole in the roof, it doesn't mean you aren't within a confined space. Add to that the shouting and singing of the fans which can spread the virus.

The meetings that MSV have already held and continue to hold, can already be used as a pilot because the spectators are in smaller numbers from that MSV and the governing bodies they have been working with can see what further measures are required to keep things safe for greater numbers.
There may well be some elite sports with smaller attendances, but as with football the constraints of the venue in which it takes place could be a deciding factor on why they are unable to have spectators. So you'd be wrong to say it has nothing to do with the number of spectators the event attracts.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why is there a thinking that TV coverage and spectator numbers is part of the decision for being an elite sport?

There are sports that have next to zero TV coverage in the UK, and have spectator figures in the hundreds that are 'elite' sports.

Probably because there is no other reason to suspend spectator attendance.
Think about it, you have an event that attracts approximately 30k spectators to each meeting, spectators travelling from all over the country. The tv coverage and attendance numbers, make it a high profile event. Being included as an Elite sport, is just a box to put it in to ban spectator attendance.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

Probably because there is no other reason to suspend spectator attendance.
Think about it, you have an event that attracts approximately 30k spectators to each meeting, spectators travelling from all over the country. The tv coverage and attendance numbers, make it a high profile event. Being included as an Elite sport, is just a box to put it in to ban spectator attendance.

If that was the case - why is Horse Racing subject to the same restrictions?
The average attendance at RaceCourses in Q4 2019 was 2,474 per event.

Professional Golf in the UK, another sport that could argue the spectators can be spread out, is also subject to the same restrictions.

Again - the number of spectators has nothing to do with the classification of a sport as being 'elite'. You are just making assumptions formed from incorrect startling points and reaching the wrong conclusions.

The Govt have previously clarified what they deem to be an elite sport. In simple terms, it is one where the competitors make a living from participating, or they are on a pathway to Olympic/Paralympic/Commonwealth Games participation.

Obviously there will be examples that can be put forward that seem to contradict this definition - but most sports have accepted the position and got on with organising events within the guidelines.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by RS67

Probably because there is no other reason to suspend spectator attendance.
Think about it, you have an event that attracts approximately 30k spectators to each meeting, spectators travelling from all over the country. The tv coverage and attendance numbers, make it a high profile event. Being included as an Elite sport, is just a box to put it in to ban spectator attendance.

I also think that there is (probably) rightly a situation where 'the powers that be' want to set an example. I may be slightly biased due to my location, but although I do understand the real reason for putting Leicester back into lockdown, I also think it was used as an example/warning to other areas (basically) saying that if you don't follow the guidelines when we relax the restrictions and your infection rates rise, we will put you back into lockdown. With the BTCC being such a high profile championship, televised World-Wide maybe it was thought not a good example to show this with potentially loads of spectators there watching it? (I can hear the arguments now, "Well, if they'll let all of those people into Donington just to see a few cars driving around in circles, why can't I go and watch Leicester City?")

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If that was the case - why is Horse Racing subject to the same restrictions?
The average attendance at RaceCourses in Q4 2019 was 2,474 per event.

Professional Golf in the UK, another sport that could argue the spectators can be spread out, is also subject to the same restrictions.

Again - the number of spectators has nothing to do with the classification of a sport as being 'elite'. You are just making assumptions formed from incorrect startling points and reaching the wrong conclusions.

The Govt have previously clarified what they deem to be an elite sport. In simple terms, it is one where the competitors make a living from participating, or they are on a pathway to Olympic/Paralympic/Commonwealth Games participation.

Obviously there will be examples that can be put forward that seem to contradict this definition - but most sports have accepted the position and got on with organising events within the guidelines.

Common denominator, high profile event attracting spectators from all over the country. Spectator areas are confined at horse racing, you can't stand all round the course like you can at a race track. Have you seen how closely spectators stand to each other at Golf.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

Common denominator, high profile event attracting spectators from all over the country. Spectator areas are confined at horse racing, you can't stand all round the course like you can at a race track. Have you seen how closely spectators stand to each other at Golf.

Have you seen how closely spectators stand to each other at a BTCC event?


A very small number of Horse Racing events would be considered high profile. Same with Golf. You're now saying it is not about the number of spectators, but being high profile with spectators from all over the country?

But - common denominator - spectators are not permitted at those events under current guidelines. So I'm still not seeing why MSV want to be treated differently?

The simple fact remains - certain sports in the UK have been classified as 'Elite', using a criteria that has been published by the Govt. That criteria makes no reference to spectators (either numbers of geographic dispersion), profile of the sport or concentration of viewing arrangements.
BTCC meets the criteria, and trying to class spectators as 'visitors to an outdoor facility' has not been able to get through a loophole.

MSV may be hoping to get a future BTCC event passed through as a pilot, but Snetterton is probably the most realistic chance of being the first MSV-hosted BTCC event with spectators this season.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

BTCC meets the criteria, and trying to class spectators as 'visitors to an outdoor facility' has not been able to get through a loophole.

But they have got through the loophole as they have already been holding race meetings without hindrance. It is just a means of finding a way of making adapting it for something the size of BTCC. In almost 30yrs of going to BTCC races, I have never found the spectator areas tightly packed, other than grandstands and pit lane walkabout, both of which had been addressed. At golf you have a large group of people standing in a confined space all looking at one view point as well as moving en mass following the golfers from hole to hole. Two completely different scenarios.

[EastonNeston]

I'd think that MSV will be the last circuit group to be allowed spectators after this.
As with other Elite level sports, a series of controlled test events, with responsible promoters will be required before allowing general public access again.


In the case of cricket, the games at Edgbaston and the Oval were chosen for the trial events,due to the quality of the host facilities, and the way the host clubs approached the situation. Likewise, Goodwood was chosen for the trial event for horse racing due to the record that organisation has for promoting and managing events safely & efficiently.

From a PR and public order viewpoint, allowing a large and high profile spectator event so close to Leicester was not acceptable.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

But they have got through the loophole as they have already been holding race meetings without hindrance.

There wasn't a loophole to get through - because they weren't 'Elite' events.

It has nothing to do with the size, scale, quantity, geographical dispersion, or any other characteristic of the spectators.

If your sport is classified as Elite, then you are not allowed spectators until Phase 5. BTCC is classified as Elite - I can't imagine how the situation could be expressed any more clearly.

Comparison to any other Elite Sport will see that BTCC is being treated exactly the same. The exceptions are those who have worked with DCMS to host pilot events.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There wasn't a loophole to get through - because they weren't 'Elite' events.

It has nothing to do with the size, scale, quantity, geographical dispersion, or any other characteristic of the spectators.

If your sport is classified as Elite, then you are not allowed spectators until Phase 5. BTCC is classified as Elite - I can't imagine how the situation could be expressed any more clearly.

May not have been elite events, but the exact same venue and facilities. Only difference, the number of spectators and the fact that they will be travelling from more areas and hence a higher risk of contamination.
The govt. even has page on it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectators

[GT6]

Not sure why some people are so down on MSV, they try hard to get us some access to the BTCC but still people have a go at them, without companies running the circuits we would have very little motor racing, for those that never bother to actually go to motor racing that is probably not a concern, but for those that do, we want to start going again.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

May not have been elite events, but the exact same venue and facilities. Only difference, the number of spectators and the fact that they will be travelling from more areas and hence a higher risk of contamination.
The govt. even has page on it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-of-spectators

It makes no difference what venue or facility they were held at. As has been repeated, and you seem to not be taking on board, the number of spectators and their travel arrangements also makes no difference.

Yes - you have linked the guidance produced for a return to spectators at Elite Sports. It should also be read with this govt. page - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/p...-sports-events

Which makes it clear:
'The Government has announced that a small number of sporting events will be used to pilot the safe return of spectators through late July and early August – with a view to reopen competition venues for sports fans, with social distancing measures in place, from October 2020. [...]
There are also likely to be further pilot events for other sports, in order to build up to and prepare for the full, socially distanced return of sporting events from 1 October 2020.'

So until either:
A) BTCC is re-classified as not being Elite.
B) A BTCC event is selected as a pilot.
C) 1st October arrives.

Then they are not allowed to have a crowd of one spectator who lives 5 metres from the venue entrance.

No matter how much BTCC is compared to other non-elite sports, whether motorsport or otherwise, the fact remains that spectators are not permitted to attend.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by RS67

In almost 30yrs of going to BTCC races, I have never found the spectator areas tightly packed, other than grandstands and pit lane walkabout, both of which had been addressed.

Having been to Donington, Croft and, most recently, Oulton, I'm afraid to say that this is just not the case. At all three circuits, my sons and family and I have been shoulder to shoulder with other spectators when spectating.

In addition, when going to the toilets or refreshment vans, you have to almost fight to make your way through the crowds.

Having said the above, I am sure that there may well be spots around the circuits that are just not as popular and where there might be space to socially distance yourself from others.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GT6

Not sure why some people are so down on MSV, they try hard to get us some access to the BTCC but still people have a go at them, without companies running the circuits we would have very little motor racing, for those that never bother to actually go to motor racing that is probably not a concern, but for those that do, we want to start going again.

I think it is because some people have a concern over the spread of COVID-19, and are accepting that govt. requirements are in place to tackle this. The associated criticism of MSV is that they appear to have tried to circumvent this, or blatantly ignored it, in the hope of making a profit from ticket sales.

I wouldn't criticise them from a business perspective - their purpose is to make money. It's more about acting in a way that appears to increase the risk to Public Health, or bend rules to achieve their aims.

Take the reporter on ITV who explained a way to get around the Spain to UK travel restriction and avoid quarantine. He may have been explaining a situation that people would like to benefit from personally, but the general consensus seemed to be that it was just undermining the collective efforts to control the virus.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by RS67

In almost 30yrs of going to BTCC races, I have never found the spectator areas tightly packed,

Hmmm...

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Having been to Donington, Croft and, most recently, Oulton, I'm afraid to say that this is just not the case. At all three circuits, my sons and family and I have been shoulder to shoulder with other spectators when spectating.

In addition, when going to the toilets or refreshment vans, you have to almost fight to make your way through the crowds.

Very much this - Brands has been rammed for the last few years at BTCC meets (so much so I only went on Saturday last year - Sundays just too busy). On the GP loop there's plenty of space once you're out in the woods but obviously you've got to get there via the busy spots and if they're on the Indy circuit then it's all busy. On the occasions I've been to Snetterton for BTCC that's also been tightly packed in a number of places.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by RS67

May not have been elite events, but the exact same venue and facilities. Only difference, the number of spectators and the fact that they will be travelling from more areas and hence a higher risk of contamination.

The difference is that one is an elite event and the other isn't. MSV's attitude for club events is that you could pay to enter the grounds and stroll around, there just happened to be a motor race going on nearby.

It's a bit like going to your local recreation park and there happens to be a Sunday League football game taking place. That might be fine for an amateur league kick-around but not if it's a Premier League match

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by RS67

But they have got through the loophole as they have already been holding race meetings without hindrance.

And largely un-noticed. I wouldn't be surprised if, now that this has been brought to the attention of the relevant authorities, they have to stop that too.

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If that was the case - why is Horse Racing subject to the same restrictions?
The average attendance at RaceCourses in Q4 2019 was 2,474 per event.

Professional Golf in the UK, another sport that could argue the spectators can be spread out, is also subject to the same restrictions.

Again - the number of spectators has nothing to do with the classification of a sport as being 'elite'. You are just making assumptions formed from incorrect startling points and reaching the wrong conclusions.

The Govt have previously clarified what they deem to be an elite sport. In simple terms, it is one where the competitors make a living from participating, or they are on a pathway to Olympic/Paralympic/Commonwealth Games participation.

Obviously there will be examples that can be put forward that seem to contradict this definition - but most sports have accepted the position and got on with organising events within the guidelines.

Watched some races from York last weekend on Sporting Life website. They were no paying spectators, but there were quite a number watching dotted around the course at the perimeters! It's public land there so course cannot stop it. Hopefully that might encourage things to open up sooner rather tah later

[Moneyseeker]

They also have to face the possibility that new restrictions could be brought in any area of the UK without notice, so impossible to guarantee spectators at any events.

Sent from my SNE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[medius]

Okay after 5 pages it's established that nobody is going to be trackside watching. The reasons for that is numerous.

Track action? Who are we expecting big things from? I'm tipping Chris Smiley to outscore both BTC Civics this weekend.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It makes no difference what venue or facility they were held at. As has been repeated, and you seem to not be taking on board, the number of spectators and their travel arrangements also makes no difference.

Yes - you have linked the guidance produced for a return to spectators at Elite Sports. It should also be read with this govt. page - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/p...-sports-events

Which makes it clear:
'The Government has announced that a small number of sporting events will be used to pilot the safe return of spectators through late July and early August – with a view to reopen competition venues for sports fans, with social distancing measures in place, from October 2020. [...]
There are also likely to be further pilot events for other sports, in order to build up to and prepare for the full, socially distanced return of sporting events from 1 October 2020.'

So until either:
A) BTCC is re-classified as not being Elite.
B) A BTCC event is selected as a pilot.
C) 1st October arrives.

Then they are not allowed to have a crowd of one spectator who lives 5 metres from the venue entrance.

No matter how much BTCC is compared to other non-elite sports, whether motorsport or otherwise, the fact remains that spectators are not permitted to attend.

My point is that, until this week, no one has said to MSV, they can not have spectators at a BTCC meeting like they have at other meetings already this month because it is an elite sport. What makes it an elite sport? According to many definitions that I can find on google, they all come up with just one definition that would apply to motorsport, that is the highest level of international or national competition. So what sets BTCC apart from British GT in that respect. BTCC drivers compete in British GT and British GT drivers compete in BTCC, so it isn't the "athletes" that give it that status. Teams compete in both championships, so it isn't the teams, so that just leaves the popularity of the sport to spectators.
There is not a single definition of Elite sport that says they would be a higher risk of spreading the virus. The only defining factor is the size of spectators the sport attracts and the distances people travel to see the sport.
Being an "Elite" sport has FA to do with it.

[crmalcolm]

"until this week, no one has said to MSV, they can not have spectators at a BTCC meeting" The Govt. said you can't have spectators at an Elite sport on 13 May - when did MSV first ask if BTCC is Elite?

"What makes it an elite sport?" - A decision by DCMS

"According to many definitions that I can find on google" - Google doesn't define Elite Sport in relation to UK COVID restrictions, DCMS does.


"So what sets BTCC apart from British GT in that respect." - BTCC is the highest level of racing in it's category, British GT is not. Although for definite answer, you'd have to ask DCMS

"There is not a single definition of Elite sport that says they would be a higher risk of spreading the virus." - And that has never been claimed. The Government have set the regulation(s) relating to Elite Sport, regardless of risk or crowd size. Some Elite Sports have large crowds in confined spaces, some have small crowds in large outdoor locations.


"The only defining factor is the size of spectators the sport attracts and the distances people travel to see the sport." - The numbers and distance travelled does not come into it.