IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

It isn't just sportscar racing that is threatened. ALL American motorsport appears to be in decline. NHRA has been struggling for quite awhile, INDYCAR continues to falter, even the once mighty NASCAR is experiencing a massive decrease in attendance and TV ratings. It's almost shocking how many empty seats are visible in the recent CUP Series broadcasts.
People are simply losing interest in the modern style of car racing.
In my opinion, the solution to this is to appeal to the public's fascination with Technology and electronic gizmos.
Race cars need to be awesome marvels of modern engineering. The current trend of cars that are more of an appliance, simply a means of going racing, just isn't capturing the public's imagination anymore.
Of all the types of American Motorsport, sports car racing is the best suited to survive into the future.....IF it's taken in the right direction.

People aren't losing interest in modern car racing,the vast majority of America is losing interest in the automobile itself! As you said its becoming more of an appliance than anything, I blame it all on the smart phone and this new era it introduced of "I" this and "me" that.every one is to distracted by their damn smart phones now a days to be bothered by anything else.cars are now used to get from here to there,not as fast as possible but as comfortable as possible.fact is performance isn't selling cars anymore,it's all the useless junk options that sells cars now.people don't care if it's a pushrod v8 or a state of the art overhead cam with twin independent variable valve timing and high pressure Bosch direct injection system.No! All people care is if it will sync with their iPhone,has navigation,Bluetooth,heated and cooled seats,DVD,power everything from pedals to the damn tail gate on the new f150.cars are so advanced now they can pretty much drive them selfs,and if it passes and the law allows self driving cars.well that will be the death of the automobile in America,and say good by to racing.until the American public's interest in cars changes or goes back to what it was just twenty years ago, all motorsports will slowly die off.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

I'm wondering if chevy will continue to race the same DP bodywork next season. The styling cues are taken from the C6 model, so it would be kind of silly to continue with the same car until 2017, with the C6 long out of production.
So, will GM go to the expense of designing a new set of bodywork, decorated to resemble the C7? Perhaps dropping an engine into a P2 chassis would be a better choice.
(Wishful thinking, I know. )

Someone on this board was super stoked that at some earlier race (Daytona?) some DP had C7 headlight stickers or something. I lol'd. Next year will likely be same body work, with new headlights to insinuate that the thing is relevant in any way.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

People aren't losing interest in modern car racing,the vast majority of America is losing interest in the automobile itself! As you said its becoming more of an appliance than anything, I blame it all on the smart phone and this new era it introduced of "I" this and "me" that.every one is to distracted by their damn smart phones now a days to be bothered by anything else.cars are now used to get from here to there,not as fast as possible but as comfortable as possible.fact is performance isn't selling cars anymore,it's all the useless junk options that sells cars now.people don't care if it's a pushrod v8 or a state of the art overhead cam with twin independent variable valve timing and high pressure Bosch direct injection system.No! All people care is if it will sync with their iPhone,has navigation,Bluetooth,heated and cooled seats,DVD,power everything from pedals to the damn tail gate on the new f150.cars are so advanced now they can pretty much drive them selfs,and if it passes and the law allows self driving cars.well that will be the death of the automobile in America,and say good by to racing.until the American public's interest in cars changes or goes back to what it was just twenty years ago, all motorsports will slowly die off.

Good post.

The car used to be the ticket to freedom for teenagers and young adults (especially in as big a country as America) ... which youngsters need or even want that sort of freedom now when they have the world at their fingertips?

[jasonjessica09]

By 2015 the only open cockpit cars left will be the LMPC cars. The current Morgan will be replaced by the Ligier coupe and the Honda ARX 03 will be replaced by the coupe Honda ARX 04. As far as DP cars. I think they will still be run by the current teams through 2016 but I doubt we will see any new teams run them. I see 6-9 DP cars for the next 2.5 years. After all the doom and gloom on the forums these past few months. I am surprised to see that 2015 could see a bit of a renaissance for LMP2 cars in the USA.

[DeezPutz]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

In my opinion, the solution to this is to appeal to the public's fascination with Technology and electronic gizmos.
Race cars need to be awesome marvels of modern engineering.

If that's what people want, then more than 30k people would be coming to a WEC race outside of Le Mans.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

By 2015 the only open cockpit cars left will be the LMPC cars. The current Morgan will be replaced by the Ligier coupe and the Honda ARX 03 will be replaced by the coupe Honda ARX 04. As far as DP cars. I think they will still be run by the current teams through 2016 but I doubt we will see any new teams run them. I see 6-9 DP cars for the next 2.5 years. After all the doom and gloom on the forums these past few months. I am surprised to see that 2015 could see a bit of a renaissance for LMP2 cars in the USA.

I looks like the new LMP3 car (which I assume is the replacement for LMPC) will have a roof.


In regards to this tire argument that has been going on for weeks, TUSC should go the F1 route and have a softer compound (for the P2's) and a hard compound (for the DP's) but allow the teams to run what they want.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

People aren't losing interest in modern car racing,the vast majority of America is losing interest in the automobile itself! As you said its becoming more of an appliance than anything, I blame it all on the smart phone and this new era it introduced of "I" this and "me" that.every one is to distracted by their damn smart phones now a days to be bothered by anything else.cars are now used to get from here to there,not as fast as possible but as comfortable as possible.fact is performance isn't selling cars anymore,it's all the useless junk options that sells cars now.people don't care if it's a pushrod v8 or a state of the art overhead cam with twin independent variable valve timing and high pressure Bosch direct injection system.No! All people care is if it will sync with their iPhone,has navigation,Bluetooth,heated and cooled seats,DVD,power everything from pedals to the damn tail gate on the new f150.cars are so advanced now they can pretty much drive them selfs,and if it passes and the law allows self driving cars.well that will be the death of the automobile in America,and say good by to racing.until the American public's interest in cars changes or goes back to what it was just twenty years ago, all motorsports will slowly die off.

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by DeezPutz

If that's what people want, then more than 30k people would be coming to a WEC race outside of Le Mans.

More than 30k attended Silverstone and Spa so it seems that is what people want

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by Ginaro Zukovsky

More than 30k attended Silverstone and Spa so it seems that is what people want

I think they wanted Mark Webber more than anything

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

In regards to this tire argument that has been going on for weeks, TUSC should go the F1 route and have a softer compound (for the P2's) and a hard compound (for the DP's) but allow the teams to run what they want.

How about TUSC should have two tire suppliers instead of one. Sure that letting Continental build two tire compounds, but having two suppliers is step-forward.

[Articus]

Because Continental Tire would be blown away by any Michelin offering. Michelin is pretty much the king of kings when it comes to Tires. Continental is a smaller company and they could not spend the kind of money Michelin would spend to develop a tire.

[MagVanisher]

There are many tire suppliers other than Michelin. How about Pirelli, Dunlop, or Bridgestone as a second tire supplier.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Articus

Because Continental Tire would be blown away by any Michelin offering. Michelin is pretty much the king of kings when it comes to Tires. Continental is a smaller company and they could not spend the kind of money Michelin would spend to develop a tire.

Not taking anything away from your point, but I believe that Dunlop will be the tire to have in LMP2 at LM this year. Also, Continental may have less revenue from tires, but they are a much larger company than Michelin.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

How about TUSC should have two tire suppliers instead of one. Sure that letting Continental build two tire compounds, but having two suppliers is step-forward.

Because it's nascar it would probably end up being Conti and Hoosier and the only difference be a sticker on the tire.

[Maelochs]

I don't have a problem with a single tire supplier, so long as it supplies good tires.

The issue here isn't that Conti cannot make tires as good as Michelin's or Dunlop's, but that ti has been told to produce a tire which was designed for and only suits one of the two types of prototype chassis.

If the contractual arrangements could be worked out, and if the series got just as much cash for the deal, (hard to imagine how since there has to be less promo valuer to be one of two rather than sole tire provider) and if one or both of those companies were interested ... but this would also entail those companies building a DP tire, no?

Certainly not "balanced" if P2s run on rubber perfected by long competition while DPs run on rubber designed to be cheap to produce so Conti maximizes RoI.

Question then becomes, why would any tire company want to invest in supplying tires for a few DPs for at most a few years, for a series which barely outdraws infomercials in the ratings?

To me the simplest solution is to tell Conti to produce a tires for each chassis type for 2015 and 2016. After that, no one knows what thew chassis will be and what the tire requirements will be, so everyone can start fresh.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

It isn't just sportscar racing that is threatened. ALL American motorsport appears to be in decline. NHRA has been struggling for quite awhile, INDYCAR continues to falter, even the once mighty NASCAR is experiencing a massive decrease in attendance and TV ratings. It's almost shocking how many empty seats are visible in the recent CUP Series broadcasts.
People are simply losing interest in the modern style of car racing.
In my opinion, the solution to this is to appeal to the public's fascination with Technology and electronic gizmos.
Race cars need to be awesome marvels of modern engineering. The current trend of cars that are more of an appliance, simply a means of going racing, just isn't capturing the public's imagination anymore.
Of all the types of American Motorsport, sports car racing is the best suited to survive into the future.....IF it's taken in the right direction.

I don't see this statement being wrong, but it has one BIG issue. All of those tech gizmos and the cars being "awesome marvels of modern engineering" costs enormous money, and aside from NASCAR, no series can afford that. Manufacturers in sports car racing (with a handful of notable exceptions) come and go as their programs reach their stated goals or become too pricey for the manufacturer to accept. It becomes a Catch-22 - they need the exotic cars to get support, but they can't get that support without the exotic cars.

Another problem which exists (and I'm kinda touching on politics here, forgive me) is that Americans simply have less surplus income than they once did and have far more choices for entertainment, and the world of sport has become tilted in a way towards sports people can do rather than just watch in awe. You are correct that motorsport is suffering, but I don't think that the ultra-advanced cars is a long-term solution, because it won't last long enough. They need to have the look of such cars, and elements of them, but the ultimate examples of engineering is too expensive for anybody in North America aside from maybe NASCAR, which has traditionally been stubbornly traditional in terms of technological changes. It's the same problem with P1 cars we have in sports car racing. Everyone wants to see them, but they are much too expensive to race anywhere but the WEC. I don't think we'll ever get the support to get those technologically-advanced cars in sports car racing - IMSA is considerably behind NASCAR and I'd say even Indycar in support.

I think, honestly, that the best thing for IMSA to do is makes the cars as cheap as possible and get the grids as fat as possible, and get more people involved in the sport, so that more catch the bug by doing it. On top of that, run as many races as possible in a year - preferably between eighteen and twenty, more if its logistically feasible - to get to as many great markets as possible. They should expand the NAEC to six races (adding a 12-hour race at Road America and a 1000 kilometer race at Mosport to the NAEC) and add more races to the schedule. Montreal, Mid-Ohio, Lime Rock and Barber Park come back first. Portland should also be back ASAP and Formula E plans on running in Miami next year, IMSA should be there as well. IMO, they should also be investigating races in the best markets that we don't currently serve, starting with New York and Chicago. Long Beach should be two races on Saturday, with Race 1 being P/PC(P3)/IMSA Lites and Race 2 being GTLM/GTD. Not every race has to include every class, but you want IMSA out there as much as possible, and promotion should focus on the capabilities of the cars as much as possible.

On top of that, every car should get tech stuff which isn't crazy expensive. IMSA should have a streaming service including some basic telemetry from the cars, and they should be putting cameras everywhere possible - trackside, on or in the kerbs, on the cars, in the cockpits, on pit crew members and driver helmets, flying in helicopters. The goal is to get as many people hooked as possible.

[DeezPutz]

Originally Posted by Articus

Because Continental Tire would be blown away by any Michelin offering. Michelin is pretty much the king of kings when it comes to Tires. Continental is a smaller company and they could not spend the kind of money Michelin would spend to develop a tire.

Second rate tires for a second rate series. Michelin shouldn't have to lower its standards.

[Maelochs]

BrentJackson----Thanks for a very interesting post.

Not so sure about huge fields—I really don't like the split races. Once PC is eliminated (and if LMP3 is run with Lites instead of the big cars) then a few more tracks open up.

I'd like to see more cars in the pro classes instead of PCs. But how cheap can prototypes be built, unless the series makes up its own rules entirely and then those cars would likely be slower than everyone else in the world, which won't reflect well on the series.

Also, based on Last Turn Club's series on the Cost of Racing, the initial cost of the car isn't that big a deal (except in WEC P1.) The costs of racing are more crew, lodging, and transport anyway.

I am all for a P1-L sort of class, where cars (P2s would work well) can be aero- and engine-modified a la P1, but have the simplicity of P2--no hybrids, no cutting-edge tech—sort of an IndyCar vs. F1 approach.

Simply stated, there is no way to be fast, safe, and cheap. I agree that LMP1-type cars are way out of reach, but unless IMSA Lites is to be the top class, "cheap" isn't in the purchase price.

With all racing series, as with all businesses, it's the ratio of revenue to cost that matter. If TUSC can't generate the revenue and the sponsorship opportunities to keep both tracks and teams profitable, then the cars can cost a billion dollars each or ten cents each—they series still goes broke.

The cars have to be quick enough and exciting enough that people want to see them race, so sponsors want to sponsor them. How much a cars costs isn't so much the issue, as how much sponsorship it can attract. (NASCAR Cars of Yesterday (or whatever they are called) aren't cheap, but they are profitable.)

The full schedule idea is good. The more markets, the more penetration, the more buzz. I think the real issue is money—it costs a lot to race and it costs a lot to stage a race, and right now TUSC doesn't seem to be generating a lot of profits for all the various people involved.—racing's usual Catch-22 (need fans to attract sponsors to pay for promo to attract fans to attract sponsors to ... )

The broadcast tech stuff idea I really like. With the cost of the gear nowadays, fans should be able to two-screen not with the ugly, hard-to-read Timing & Scoring screen, but with in-car, forward,-, side-, and rear-facing, curb-cams, flag-station cams, overhead corner cams ... and in-car cams of course, but not like the ESM cam which shows 80 percent blank dashboard.

Helicopter or blimp shots are awesome. With modern drone technology (for a few hundred anyone can buy a simple two-camera streaming video drone) overhead shots should be normal—while they don't show speed well, they really show lines through corners, routes through traffic, and give a sense of where each corner shot is relative to the rest of the course.

Add to that telemetry—throttle, brake, G-loads ... Fans love the info, new fans with short attention spans will appreciate the wealth of input, and anything which increases immersion is by definition better.

As you say ... "The goal is to get as many people hooked as possible."

Thanks again for the post.

[Purist]

Brent, I understand some of that, but it doesn't make sense to make the cars much cheaper, and therefore the grids much larger.

Even the largest tracks/events can't handle many more than 60-65 cars. Sebring isn't 4.11, 4.86, or 5.2 miles around anymore. Daytona is 3.56 miles, not 3.81, 3.84, or 3.87 miles, like it used to be, with the full International Horseshoe, and therefore no esse right after Turn 1 to constrict things even more in the infield. Since 1982, at least, none of the other tracks have hosted a grid of more than 60 cars, not even Road America or Watkins Glen.

Morphing LMPC/LMP3 into a support category to be backed up by IMSA Lites won't buy you many more cars of any one type, when split up among the other three classes.

Auto racing, except for things like F1, is still pretty darn good bang for the buck when compared to attending NFL, NBA, and a number of others. It also stacks up well given how much time you buy compared to a major concert. Boosting support by boosting participation, I think, would be better served by supporting local go-kart tracks, and getting kids, and even adults, hooked that way.

A 15-18-race schedule, with all, or almost all, full rounds would certainly help maintain momentum and hold the audience more consistently. The 1982 IMSA season, which was kind of a high-water mark, had 18 rounds for the GTP/GTX cars, and 10 of those were enduros, if you will, with a distance/duration of 500km/3 hours or more. Total race time that season was ~84 hours. And if the new IMSA doesn't repeat venues during the season, like happened a few times in 1982, they could cover even more ground with the same number of rounds.

Tracks IMSA GTP/GTX ran in 1982:
1. Brainerd
2. Charlotte
3. Daytona (3x)
4. Laguna Seca
5. Lime Rock Park
6. Mid Ohio (2x)
7. Mosport Park
8. Pocono
9. Portland
10. Riverside
11. Road America
12. Road Atlanta (2x)
13. Sears Point
14. Sebring

I know the old IMSA generally ran GTP/Lights and GTO/GTU combinations during its heyday, but I think the P/GTLM and PC/GTD is a better option for the current IMSA. And if having PC run separately with Lites lets the rest of the field run together at a few tracks that are iffy on capacity, I'm all for it!

Something I don't quite get is, if travel and lodging is such an issue, how was it even possible that the old WSC managed the fields it did at the Carrera Panamericana and Buenos Aires 1000km in the '50s, and how did they manage the Buenos Aires 1000km, just a few weeks before the Daytona 24, in the early '70s? In a similar vein, Team Lotus, for Jim Clark, managed to tackle up to 22 races in a given year, all around the world (including japan and Australia), in the mid '60s. It just doesn't make sense that it would be harder now than in an era when mass air travel and worldwide communication were in their infancy compared to today.

[BrentJackson]

Maelochs and Jackson are debating again. Here we go, ladies and gentlemen....

You are correct in pointing out that the crucial point is the cost vs. Benefit ratio, the return on the investment made. I don't think that the series can justify much more than now without wide factory support, which is highly unlikely to come to pass. Hence, the cost cannot grow much more with the current revenue on hand. Hence, the only real option is to try and keep costs close to now. The problem with that is the international rules. The WEC won't support cars like what you propose so long as they think that P1-L has a future, and their huge break given to Rebellion shows that they have not given up on that idea. This problem means IMSA is stuck with going with a P2 base (too slow), a P1 base (far too expensive) or doing something on their own.

This becomes the prototype paradox, doesn't it? The cars needed in an ideal world to grow the series on aren't available to us, and beyond that the international rules are designed to have other series feeding into the WEC. IMSA won't (and shouldn't) accept being a second-class series, so they end up at an impasse with the rules used in other parts of the world. IMSA has to get the FIA and ACO to make cars that they can use to grow, but with four factory P1 teams and a healthy grid in many of the other categories of sports car racing, what incentive do they have?

It's a good idea in theory to up-engine and give more tire and more aero to a P2 chassis, but I'm sure it's not that simple, and even if it could be done, what does that do for the cars if they want to run in a ACO/FIA rules race? This forces IMSA to try and shoot a gap. How possible is that likely to be? Thus, trying to keep close to Le Mans will force IMSA to toss any pretense of close competition or accept being a WEC support series. The management of IMSA, given those choices, is far more likely to make their own prototype rules than accept a second-class status.

[Maelochs]

Well, If P2 is too slow (and let's recall, the current pace for both types of P-Car is significantly faster than Gen1--Gen3 DPs ever were) how is IMSA to get a cheaper, faster alternative to today's P2/DP?

Certainly can't be a lot lighter than a P2---not and maintian safety. Sure, LMP675 were lighter---but as soon as you go to a CF tub prices go up, and there is no way you are going to get lighter than a P2 chassis with a safe tube frame.

More power is always an option, but more power eats tires unless coupled with more downforce, and then the cars are faster through the corners but not a lot quicker down the straights--sort of like current DPs.

How much more power can be gotten reliably form the current DP power plants? Blown engines, being expensive and all ... and bigger engines weighing more ... But the other options for more power (adding turbos to the V8s? ) would be expensive and really impact reliability.

I just don't see a lot of ways to build cars a lot cheaper and still have them be safe and fast. I'd say the current P2/DP formula (assuming DPs came with all the mods, instead of buying them as add-ons) is about as cheap is it is going to get---but you say it is too slow.

Okay---what specifically would you suggest that would be under half-a-million and faster than the existing options?

I don't think TUSC needs P1L, and I can't see P1H being economically feasible at all. That leaves P2/DP ...

And also ... why are P2s too slow? I have heard a lot of complaints---I have Made a lot of complaints---about TUSC but I have never heard that the top class is too slow.

If I had to make a suggestion, I'd say in 2017 adopt P2 and let teams play with engines and aero a little, drop PC/P3, and run GTLM and GTD/GT3.

If the Ams really needed a prototype class, let them run a separate but included championship within P, the way Rolex did with its Trueman/Whoever awards.

[tkelland]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

If the Ams really needed a prototype class, let them run a separate but included championship within P, the way Rolex did with its Trueman/Whoever awards.

I wholly support this. Look at the Laguna Seca win by Ed Brown and company. He is the epitome of a gentleman driver, racing in the top class. Often times, he does not take a podium finish, win or the like. He enjoys racing with the professional drivers, improving each performance and occasionally taking home something shiny and/or crystal.

Therefore, we could see a class within a class. It becomes easier for fans to tell the difference (Grand Am was better in this regard) when first attending a race/watching on tv. But to sports car die-hards (not unlike those of us on this board) we can differentiate with little issue.

[Dyson Mazda]

At the end of the day what is more beneficial to a North American series? One factory team with 2 P1 cars and a $40 million budget or 8 single teams with P2 cars and $5 million budgets.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

At the end of the day what is more beneficial to a North American series? One factory team with 2 P1 cars and a $40 million budget or 8 single teams with P2 cars and $5 million budgets.

Interesting Question.
I suppose it depends on how diverse and interesting the eight P2 entries are.
A good variety of HPDs, Lolas, Ligier, Morgans, Zytecs, Orecas etc. would make for a pretty attractive field.
However, if those two P1 entries were really something special and historically significant, like the old Audi R8 LMP or even the new Porsche...........

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

At the end of the day what is more beneficial to a North American series? One factory team with 2 P1 cars and a $40 million budget or 8 single teams with P2 cars and $5 million budgets.

I would rather watch 1 P1 than the whole TUSC field.