[Official] Spanish Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 8 of 23

[S griffin]

Very rarely though do you see cars going off at the final turn. And the runoff has increased making it safer, although it's still not a place you want to go off. It was probably more dangerous back in the day, as we saw from some like Haberfeld.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Very rarely though do you see cars going off at the final turn. And the runoff has increased making it safer, although it's still not a place you want to go off. It was probably more dangerous back in the day, as we saw from some like Haberfeld.

How have they increased the run-off? Have they actually moved the grandstand?

[TrapezeArtist]

Well that gave us quite a lot to chew over.

Red Bull are still in a class of their own. The superiority of the car allows Verstappen to exploit his massive speed without getting into tangles, but this time around Perez was looking a bit lost.

Mercedes proved to anyone who was still in doubt that the zero-sidepods were a bad idea. Now they have been ditched the Mercs seem to be getting into their stride, even if there is more work to do. Lewis is now looking and sounding like a World Champion again. George had a storming start (he must have passed about 5 cars before the first corner, because he was investigated and cleared by the stewards after he ran around the escape lane). His pass on Carlos Sainz was pretty good too.

Ferrari showed reasonably well with Sainz, but Leclerc (or his car) was all at sea. I think qualifying second may have flattered Sainz and the car a bit, perhaps because his timing was just right.

Aston Martin were not as good as they have been in previous races. The excuse of a damaged floor sounded like a reasonable explanation of Fernando's qualifying pace, but he didn't do much better in the race. And then to just sit behind Stroll and declare no interest in passing him was just weird. Whatever happened to the Alonso of old? It must have been a bit disappointing for his Spanish fans and could cost him a championship place at the end of the season.

Alpine were not as impressive as qualifying suggested.

Likewise McLaren. Lando will be feeling chastened by his over-enthusiasm in the second corner which utterly ruined his race. Though it was inevitable that he would have fallen down the order somewhat anyway.

Poor Tsunoda! He put up a firm but fair defence and Zhou just jumped off the road. After Zhou had bailed out Tsunoda didn't even run out to the white line. Unlike Verstappen's defence against Sainz on the first lap when he had more than half his car off the track. Yuki is innocent!

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

A thought I had during this weekend is that, during the 2018-2020 seasons when Lewis Hamilton was at his absolute peak, I never remember feeling that it was a foregone conclusion that he would beat Bottas in any race, or particularly any qualifying session. He was always expected to beat Bottas, but I don't remember feeling totally shocked if it was the other way around. And there were plenty of races when Bottas simply outdrove him. I would be interested to know if I am misremembering or if others also feel more confident of Verstappen beating Perez than they were of Hamilton beating Bottas.

I think you are misremembering. I think Perez is a far more competitive teammate than Bottas. All this is, of course, subjective. Both Bottas and Perez were/are victims of the whims of Mercedes/Red Bull who decide which of the two drivers will become world champion.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I think you are misremembering. I think Perez is a far more competitive teammate than Bottas. All this is, of course, subjective. Both Bottas and Perez were/are victims of the whims of Mercedes/Red Bull who decide which of the two drivers will become world champion.

Agreed - Bottas seemed less competitive than Rosberg, it was cruise and collect for Hamilton during those years (as it is now for Max). Perez is solid but not spectacular, in many ways he's the ideal second driver for Red Bull - he's not going to challenge Max but is good enough to collect big points on a regular basis. He does seem to have bad days where he underperforms but with the car advantage Red Bull have at the moment it's not going to cost the team anything.

[steve_r]

Bottas was a good qualifier and was often closely matched to Hamilton on Saturdays. Bottas also had some race days when he matched or beat Hamilton. Neither Perez or Bottas are / were ever going to win the WDC unless their respective teammates cannot complete a full season for whatever reason.

Only a few weeks ago some commentators were hypothesising that Perez might take the fight to Verstappen this year for the WDC, but recent history has shown us that that was never going to happen because of weekends like these last two.

I am a fan of Perez by the way. He will win again this year, but not often enough for a realistic title chance.

[Richard C]

Agree with most of the comments regarding Bottas and Perez. I think drivers like Lewis and Max are both exceptionally quick/talented, but just as importantly, very consistent. Everyone has bad days, but they seem to perform at a high level in ways others struggle to achieve. So that is why you see someone like Bottas or Perez stinking it up on occasion in ways that would be very rare for Lewis or Max. I also think both Lewis and Max are able to do this to an even higher degree (consistent high level performance) when they have a good car under them. If you have confidence in the car, you can just drive.

As to earlier posts about Red Bull ensuring Max is in front. I think there is some truth to this, but at the same time it is a moot point because I think the biggest negative impact on Perez is... himself and not Red Bull. And while I like and rate Perez, I had no illusions he was going to challenge Max for the WDC this year unless Max had a series of uncharacteristic stumbles (see comments above regarding consistent high performance).

Richard

[TrapezeArtist]

I don't think either Mercedes or Red Bull have decided which of their drivers takes the WDC. They would have if they had needed to, but the relative merits of the drivers have always sorted it out without the need for team interference.

Just to put a historical perspective on it, many drivers in the past were contracted as Number 2s. Think of the times in the 50s (and maybe early 60s) when a No 1 broke his car and then took over the No 2's car in order to get a result. This crazy situation came to a natural end for several reasons:
The rules changed.
The increasing difficulty of getting in and out of the cars.
The increasing tailoring of the cockpit to suit each driver.

The last driver I know of who was a contracted Number 2 was Ronnie Peterson at Lotus in 1978 (or was it 1979?). When the 79 first came out there was only one chassis available, and Mario got it. Even after Ronnie got in a 79, he was obliged to defer to Mario if they were running 1-2. Sadly Ronnie was killed at Monza because I'm sure he would have found a way to show us who was really the quickest. Interesting footnote: at that time Team Lotus consisted of 35 people, from the Old Man down to the gopher, and they worked out of a country house stable block.

[Mike Harte]

What about Barrichelo and Massa? Surely they were No.2s?

[BTCC frog]

But if you look at the 2017-2021 seasons, I think you could point to the following races when Bottas outclassed Hamilton and beat him entirely on merit:

Sochi 2017
Red Bull Ring 2017
Abu Dhabi 2017

Sakhir 2018
Shanghai 2018
Montreal 2018
Sochi 2018

Melbourne 2019
Baku 2019
Suzuka 2019
COTA 2019

Red Bull Ring 2020
Abu Dhabi 2020

In 2021 there weren't really any examples, but that was certainly Bottas' worst season with Mercedes. But in those five years that is 13 races when Bottas was quite clearly the better Mercedes driver and there were plenty more when they were more evenly-matched.

Sergio Perez has been teammate to Max Verstappen for three seasons at Red Bull and I don't think there is a single example of a race when he was genuinely the better driver. Monaco 2022 is one possible example, although he needed to have that suspicious qualifying crash to start ahead of Verstappen, while Baku 2023 was also a possibility but they were actually very evenly-matched then. It is a far lower rate of beating his teammate than Bottas had.

If we look at qualifying head-to-heads, the score is Hamilton 69-31 Bottas at Mercedes. At Red Bull it is Verstappen 42-9 Perez. That is quite a striking difference, and only around half of Perez's wins were really on merit. I know that Bottas was more of a qualifier than Perez, who is better at tyre management (although while that was true in the Force India and Sauber days, we have never really seen it at Red Bull). Perez is also much better at racecraft.

But I think the statistics suggest that Valtteri Bottas was much closer to Lewis Hamilton's level than Sergio Perez is to Max Verstappen's. If you don't believe that is because of more preferential treatment at Red Bull than Mercedes, then either Bottas must be better than Perez, or Verstappen better than Hamilton, at least during their times in the respective aforementioned teams. Also, as I said before, from my own personal recollections, I remember never going into any weekend thinking it was a foregone conclusion that Hamilton would beat Bottas (apart from 2021), and not being totally shocked when Bottas got the upper hand. I even bet on him sometimes. But I have always felt extremely confident that Verstappen would beat Perez on any given weekend, and have very rarely been proven wrong.

Of course, both drivers were absolutely ideal number twos, and were not on the same level as their team leaders who are both all-time greats.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

What about Barrichelo and Massa? Surely they were No.2s?

Good point, so while we're on the "Schumacher's teammates" we should throw in Eddie Irvine too. I don't think I ever saw anything to say that any of them had Number 2 in their contract, though I do recall Eddie Irvine saying that it was better to be Number 2 in a Ferrari than Number 1 anywhere else.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

But I think the statistics suggest that Valtteri Bottas was much closer to Lewis Hamilton's level than Sergio Perez is to Max Verstappen's. If you don't believe that is because of more preferential treatment at Red Bull than Mercedes, then either Bottas must be better than Perez, or Verstappen better than Hamilton, at least during their times in the respective aforementioned teams. Also, as I said before, from my own personal recollections, I remember never going into any weekend thinking it was a foregone conclusion that Hamilton would beat Bottas (apart from 2021), and not being totally shocked when Bottas got the upper hand. I even bet on him sometimes. But I have always felt extremely confident that Verstappen would beat Perez on any given weekend, and have very rarely been proven wrong.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics! But I think your most telling point is what people would expect of the two drivers. Like you, I "expected" Hamilton to beat Bottas, but I "know" Verstappen will beat Perez.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

There are lies, damned lies and statistics! But I think your most telling point is what people would expect of the two drivers. Like you, I "expected" Hamilton to beat Bottas, but I "know" Verstappen will beat Perez.

Yes, you can't read too much into what the stats say. But I did expect different things this year. Like I expected Merc to be back up there and they are only starting now.

Now as for Bottas/Hamilton, Bottas was good on his day, but never was in Hamilton's class. As for Perez, he's done some good races this year, but he has found Max to have a new lease of life. So it's making him look worse, because Perez is definitely a great talent who would be good for any team

[Akrapovic]

I mean we say you can't read too much into stats, but some stats are simple and important. Red Bull have never had a 1-2 in the drivers championship, despite having Vettel and Max absolutely dominate. Meanwhile Mercedes had 2x 1-2s with Bottas in the second seat alone.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I mean we say you can't read too much into stats, but some stats are simple and important. Red Bull have never had a 1-2 in the drivers championship, despite having Vettel and Max absolutely dominate. Meanwhile Mercedes had 2x 1-2s with Bottas in the second seat alone.

And even if Webber didn't bottle it in 2010 it would have probably been a Webber 1, Alonso 2

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I mean we say you can't read too much into stats, but some stats are simple and important. Red Bull have never had a 1-2 in the drivers championship, despite having Vettel and Max absolutely dominate. Meanwhile Mercedes had 2x 1-2s with Bottas in the second seat alone.

Merc had easily the most dominant package ever. Engine led, though chassis was good too, meaning they could turn it down and win, then turn it up if needed.

[S griffin]

Red Bull have their most dominant car this year, at least at the start. Of course Merc are now catching up, but Max still has the car to keep him out in front. Perez really isn't getting the best out of the car, despite a couple of wins. It seems he will be stuck in this number 2 role throughout. The only team mate who could give Max a run for his money, at least at RBR, is Danny Ric. The others haven't got close or at least not close enough.

[Skam85]

When it comes to dominant cars, I'd rank them as:

McLaren 1988
Ferrari 2004
Mercedes 2014-16
Red Bull 2023

[HDTVKSS]

I think a lot of people forget just how much of a beast that 2004 Ferrari was. I think it was Melbourne practice, rolled it out did a flyer, put it away and topped the session.

[S griffin]

I still think the Williams FW14B was the most advanced car. Most of the other mentioned cars' dominance was at least down to having a top top driver in the car (or in the case of the 88 McLaren, two!), but as good as Mansell was, he wasn't quite the best of his era, yet he pretty much wiped the floor with that car.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Skam85

When it comes to dominant cars, I'd rank them as:

McLaren 1988
Ferrari 2004
Mercedes 2014-16
Red Bull 2023

Statistically, it's:

Mercedes from 2014
Alfa-Romeo from 1946
McLaren from 1988
Brawn from 2009
Ferrari from 1997

However it is looked at though - it is far from definite that Mercedes had easily the most dominant package ever.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Statistically, it's:

Mercedes from 2014
Alfa-Romeo from 1946
McLaren from 1988
Brawn from 2009
Ferrari from 1997

However it is looked at though - it is far from definite that Mercedes had easily the most dominant package ever.

I think it is if you allow for the engine. When you can turn the motor down so much and still have the useable horsepower to lap the field it’s easy.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I think it is if you allow for the engine. When you can turn the motor down so much and still have the useable horsepower to lap the field it’s easy.

I fully agree.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Statistically, it's:

Mercedes from 2014
Alfa-Romeo from 1946
McLaren from 1988
Brawn from 2009
Ferrari from 1997

However it is looked at though - it is far from definite that Mercedes had easily the most dominant package ever.

Why Ferrari from 1997? That year they won 5 races, with a total of 13 podiums and 10 retirements, finishing second in the WCC, while Williams won 8 races, with a total of 15 podiums, 10 retirements, a DSQ and winning the WCC.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why Ferrari from 1997? That year they won 5 races, with a total of 13 podiums and 10 retirements, finishing second in the WCC, while Williams won 8 races, with a total of 15 podiums, 10 retirements, a DSQ and winning the WCC.

1997 saw the start of a run of 113 wins in 300 races (37.67%) and 127 wins in 400 races (31.75%). Recent years require a longer period of assessment to see a level of Ferrari dominance when compared to late-80s McLaren and mid-2010s Mercedes.