Who was better: Brock or Richards?

[A9X05]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Brock won Bathurst in SERIES Production, Group C and Group A

Brocky not only won Bathurst in Series Production as most of us know? But he won in 1972, and drove single handedly the equivalent of 800kms! Without even getting out of the car! Only Allan Moffat has done the same,and won in both 1970-71!
I would love to see some of the current guys try and do that? (Yeah Right!)

[Schrodes]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Brock won Bathurst in SERIES Production, Group C and Group A

Yeah, I realised I put Improved instead of Series while we were out last night.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

He also never ever called the fans a##holes unlike some drivers....

He never got treated as appallingly by the meathead fans as Jim did that day. "*rse holes" (to use the correct spelling) is what they were that day.
Yes, I've got a vested interest to declare as I own one of Jim's old cars (and sold another a couple of years ago) but I've thought this through and to me Gentleman Jim was/is fast, thoughtful, respectful of car and opposition and a great ambassador for the sport to sponsors and fans. He also never put his name on everything he could get a $ out of eg. "Peter Brock Lada Samara" and the infamous polariser.
Brocky was great but overall IMHO in the same machinery it has to be Jim.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by David Towe

He also never put his name on everything he could get a $ out of eg. "Peter Brock Lada Samara"...

That was done only to keep his indebted special vehicles business afloat; his staff paid, etc.

You make it sound as though Brock pocketed this money personally, which is incorrect.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by David Towe

He never got treated as appallingly by the meathead fans as Jim did that day. "*rse holes" (to use the correct spelling) is what they were that day.

That was a tongue-in-cheek remark on my part. You need to laugh at such comments... not to make logical counter-arguments in response to such statements. You will note that I said I love both drivers!

Jim made that comment because the fans deserved it, plain and simple. If I were Jimmy I'd throw a few cans back at them...

As for Brock, he had his detractors but they didn't dare ridicule themselves with such outlandish behaviour. Probably because even his detractors were in awe of his ability, his record, and the strength of his public persona.

[db120176]

Jim was good - I wonder how good he would have been with an Energy Polariser?

[Senna05]

Originally Posted by Forda

That was done only to keep his indebted special vehicles business afloat; his staff paid, etc.

You make it sound as though Brock pocketed this money personally, which is incorrect.

I have to agree - We're talking about a guy who practically bankrupted himself and pulled himself out of competitive main seris retirement in 2002 to attempt to get his STEP-SON a drive?

In all honesty, this is about two drivers, not about "********" comments, crappy special vehicles, etc. Drivers. Let's keep it on track!

[ajrichar]

For me, it has to be gentleman Jim. Brock was blisteringly fast, but Jim carried that across Touring Cars and into a range of different machinery to win in that too.

Such a brilliant question and very very tough to answer, but for me it has to be Jim.

[pete55]

Originally Posted by ajrichar

For me, it has to be gentleman Jim. Brock was blisteringly fast, but Jim carried that across Touring Cars and into a range of different machinery to win in that too.

Another one who has no idea of what Brockie drove. He was probably more versatile than Jim.

[doug05]

Originally Posted by pete55

Another one who has no idea of what Brockie drove. He was probably more versatile than Jim.

I have to agree. It is amazing, it seems so many people think Brock just drove Touring Cars. People forget his diversity, throughout his career, even post V8 retirement, still winning in cross Aust rallies etc etc. For me, it is all Brock, yes Jim is a great guy and has been successful, but for everything Brock has done and the legacy he has set up gets my vote

[Mark Webber]

no question Jim

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by ajrichar

For me, it has to be gentleman Jim. Brock was blisteringly fast, but Jim carried that across Touring Cars and into a range of different machinery to win in that too.

Such a brilliant question and very very tough to answer, but for me it has to be Jim.

Jim never drove anything apart from Touring and GT type cars ...

Brock also drove a Birrana open wheeler and Le Mans Porsche apart from all the touring, production and sports sedans. He also WON the toughest rally ever held in Australia and was a successful regular in rallycross. Enough versatility for you?

However, I'm sure that Jum would have performed admirably at all those too and this is NOT the point of the argument.

If you put these 2 drivers HEAD-to-HEAD in the same car, who would win? Surely nobody could pick Richards ... check their lap times in the SAME car, check their race results in SIMILAR cars. It's no contest.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Jim never drove anything apart from Touring and GT type cars ...

Brock also drove a Birrana open wheeler and Le Mans Porsche apart from all the touring, production and sports sedans. He also WON the toughest rally ever held in Australia and was a successful regular in rallycross. Enough versatility for you?

However, I'm sure that Jum would have performed admirably at all those too and this is NOT the point of the argument.

In fairness Jim was quite a competitive rally driver in New Zealand in the early 70s, before deciding to concentrate on circuit racing in Australia.

He also did have a short career in open-wheelers, driving a Bob Jane T-Marts/Kleber sponsored Matich in the 1979 Rothmans F5000 Series.

[A9X05]

Originally Posted by racer69

In fairness Jim was quite a competitive rally driver in New Zealand in the early 70s, before deciding to concentrate on circuit racing in Australia.

He also did have a short career in open-wheelers, driving a Bob Jane T-Marts/Kleber sponsored Matich in the 1979 Rothmans F5000 Series.

Pretty sure He also drove speedway too! I seem to think I've seen a pic of him driving in a Sidchrome Monaro many years ago! I would say it was in the early 70's! Can any Kiwis confirm this?

[alfasud]

Originally Posted by A9X05

Pretty sure He also drove speedway too! I seem to think I've seen a pic of him driving in a Sidchrome Monaro many years ago! I would say it was in the early 70's! Can any Kiwis confirm this?

From this article, it says it was a Camaro that Jim raced in Speedway:
http://www.nzmotorsport.co.nz/conten...m?pLive&id=791

In NZ circuit racing there was an Anglia, 1300 Escort, Twin Cam Escort, Hillman Imp, Camaro, Falcon GT, GTHO and Mustang. He also won long distance events with Rod Coppins in a Valiant Charger. As already mentioned, he also competed in rallying.

[Forda]

Bathurst legend Brock best in world bar one:

Pretty much says it all...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Motorspor...om=moreStories

Peter Brock has come second in a list of the world's best 20 touring car drivers, pipped for top spot by British ace Steve Soper.

[ajrichar]

I have found the patronising tones a little disappointing along with the assumption that I don't understand what PB drove and what he achieved. Of COURSE he was more than just a touring car driver. His Le Mans, sportscars, rally and trials runs, tarmac 'targa' style events on TOP of his massive Touring Car success and formidable sealed surface talent.... To be able to drive HDT Toranas, Group C Commodores, Group A BMWs, Sierras, then Volvos and V8-era Ford/Holden contests and on to historic racing at Goodwood - Brock had the knack of driving anything he hopped in to and driving it well. His talent behind the wheel of a variety of machinery was truly extraordinary, and his was a natural talent. His ability manifested itself like Colin McRae (natural car control) rather than one who had to work at their craft (ala Carlos Sainz). I understand all of these points.

But this topic invited opinions. It is not a 'be all and end all' on the issue and I merely stated that in my humble opinion I think Jim is better. I am quite prepared for people to have alternative viewpoints and fully expect them to do so. But to be told: "Another one who has no idea of what Brockie drove" infers I am some moron that doesn't understand Brock's career or the range of machinery he drove (and won) in. I do, but just don't happen to think he was superior to Richards. That is all.

[pete55]

Originally Posted by ajrichar

For me, it has to be gentleman Jim. Brock was blisteringly fast, but Jim carried that across Touring Cars and into a range of different machinery to win in that too.

Read what you wrote again especially the part ' but Jim carried that across Touring Cars etc'. To a simple person like me that means you are implying that Jim did this but Brock didn't. Next time take a bit of time to explain what you are saying.

[v8man]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Jim never drove anything apart from Touring and GT type cars ...

Brock also drove a Birrana open wheeler and Le Mans Porsche apart from all the touring, production and sports sedans. He also WON the toughest rally ever held in Australia and was a successful regular in rallycross. Enough versatility for you?

However, I'm sure that Jum would have performed admirably at all those too and this is NOT the point of the argument.

If you put these 2 drivers HEAD-to-HEAD in the same car, who would win? Surely nobody could pick Richards ... check their lap times in the SAME car, check their race results in SIMILAR cars. It's no contest.

It may of been called the toughest rally ever held in Aus but had more people servicing the cars (rebuilting the cars) at all service points that they had to close part of the factory while the rally was on. This was advised to me from a friend who was high up in GMH and did spend the whole rally following the rally.
By the way, I think that PB was the better driver, show me any other driver that has set a lap record on the last lap of the Bathurst 1000.

[db120176]

Originally Posted by Forda

[U]Bathurst legend Brock best in world bar one:

The validity of this list is undermined by the fact they've listed Steve Soper as the No.1......

[Notso Swift]

Indeed, but it is Brittish, what would the same list have in Australia PB 1 no doubt. In an Italian "world" list Roberto Ravaglia would be a clear number 1 with daylight second.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

Indeed, but it is Brittish, what would the same list have in Australia PB 1 no doubt. In an Italian "world" list Roberto Ravaglia would be a clear number 1 with daylight second.

Don't forget Klaus Ludwig.

[Notso Swift]

Strangely enough I was going to add "or Klaus for a German list", but my personal opinion of the younger Stuck being better got in the way!