888 Gets Off... Time To Fix The Rules?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Tourer

How are they failing? They're clear, do the job needed and make complete sense. What else are you looking for?

The rules failed because the cc is there for safety only, he is there for one purpose that's why he is not allowed to touch the car, the wheel/tyre issue was an oversight when the rules were written. I'm not saying T8 had favourable treatment.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

A reason to complain about bias in the sport towards 888?

Originally Posted by Tourer

LOL - if only 10/10ths had a "like" button I'd have used it - good call mate.

You holden supporters see a skeleton in every closet.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

The rules failed because the cc is there for safety only, he is there for one purpose that's why he is not allowed to touch the car, the wheel/tyre issue was an oversight when the rules were written. I'm not saying T8 had favourable treatment.

Sorry mate, he's there for more than safety - although that is one of the key requirements. I respectfully suggest that you should probably go and read the rules on the cc.

I'd also contend that moving a wheel was indeed potentially safety related & the need to address such items was exactly why the rules are written as they are, with work on the car prevented but silent on other work.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

You holden supporters see a skeleton in every closet.

Nice try champ but wrong again - not now nor have ever been either a ford or holden supporter - just enjoy motor racing.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

i think the insult was a bit unnecessary, however clearly i studied maths at school

even with bigger tanks and not using E10 would still have a fuel stop, unless you wanted some massive 180 litre tank or similar

Nothing wrong with having pit stops, thats called strategy,

Races that require pit stops are good.

Races that require compulsory pit stops are not so good.

But even Formula One has compulsory pit stops these days so I guess I'm in the minority.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

Races that require pit stops are good.

Races that require compulsory pit stops are not so good.

But even Formula One has compulsory pit stops these days so I guess I'm in the minority.

V8s dont have compulsory pit stops this year, they do have a compulsory amount of fuel that is required to be used in some races. But the cars will need to fuel and that fuel limit is more than one tank

In most races though there has not been a pit stop at all, although some have chosen to take one

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Sorry mate, he's there for more than safety - although that is one of the key requirements. I respectfully suggest that you should probably go and read the rules on the cc.

I'd also contend that moving a wheel was indeed potentially safety related & the need to address such items was exactly why the rules are written as they are, with work on the car prevented but silent on other work.

champ, you know you're wrong no matter which way you try to twist it.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by V8SC 2014 Operations Manual - Division “D” – Sporting Rules

D12.2 Personnel
12.2.1 Unless otherwise specified in Supplementary/Further Supplementary Regulations, each Car may be attended by a maximum of:
12.2.1.1 Eight (8) people across the prescribed line when carrying out any pit stop in any race

12.2.2 One of the people in Rule D12.2.1 must be the Car controller;
12.2.2.1 through whom the Competitor will be responsible for the safe operation of all pit stops;
12.2.2.2 whose primary duty is to ensure that the pit stop is carried out safely and in accordance with all applicable Rules, including the Pit Lane release Rules as contained in Schedule B2;
12.2.2.3 who must be primarily positioned near the front of the Car while it is in its Pit Bay; and
12.2.2.4 who must not undertake any work at all on a Car at any pit stop; and
12.2.2.5 who must at all times maintain full control of the pit stop, all the Team’s pit personnel and the Car’s movements into the Pit Bay and out into the fast lane of the Pit Lane.

Interesting... and not as tightly worded as you might like. Perhaps that might change. Which is the point of this thread in the first place...

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

champ, you know you're wrong no matter which way you try to twist it.

Not in the slightest champ, I'm quite comfortable that there's no issue with either the rules or the pit stop in question.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Not in the slightest champ, I'm quite comfortable that there's no issue with either the rules or the pit stop in question.

Well, you should have read what I posted more closely and not jump to conclusions that I am in some way criticising T8.

[Woolley]

Having now seen the coverage and read the rules as posted above, if I were a pit lane observer I'd have to say there is a tick by every one of those statements, so nothing to see here. I'd also say that what was done maintained safety and so is entirely within the intention of the rules.

And I'm independent of manufacturer interest. I drive a BMW.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Well, you should have read what I posted more closely and not jump to conclusions that I am in some way criticising T8.

Not jumping to conclusions - you're criticising the rule and I'm saying that it's absolutely fine. as this thread is about a 888 pit stop I'm also saying that the stop was fine under the rules.

All good.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Not jumping to conclusions - you're criticising the rule and I'm saying that it's absolutely fine. as this thread is about a 888 pit stop I'm also saying that the stop was fine under the rules.

All good.

Well, some think the rule needs to be looked at.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Well, some think the rule needs to be looked at.

I still think it needs looking at. The technical definition of 'Car' is important here...

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I still think it needs looking at. The technical definition of 'Car' is important here...

"Car" is a defined term in the rules.

[JABWOA]

I notice that some teams have the CC at the driver's front (instead of pit lane approach side) which would give vision issues for a safe release.

My concern is that the T8 CC had to take his eyes off the pitstop and pitlane in order to move the wheel, therefore not having complete control over the pitstop.

[Gaz170]

Maybe the rule should just be the car controller can't do ANYTHING except watch the car and ensure it is released safely. No touching ANY component except for the lollipop.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

Maybe the rule should just be the car controller can't do ANYTHING except watch the car and ensure it is released safely. No touching ANY component except for the lollipop.

Bingo.

That'd close any loopholes or interpretations/excuses by teams as to why the car controller was touching tires or the car.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

Maybe the rule should just be the car controller can't do ANYTHING except watch the car and ensure it is released safely. No touching ANY component except for the lollipop.

I think you just listed the key problem, that's actually what we thought the rule was, The commentators had always encouraged us to think that, and now suddenly we find out that's not the rule

[Antrodemus]

Originally Posted by rich07

Bingo.

That'd close any loopholes or interpretations/excuses by teams as to why the car controller was touching tires or the car.

But then you'd still get the potential situation where an errant tyre/wheel nut/whatever is wobbling its way into the fast lane, and the car controller is the only person in a position to stop it. What then? Catch 22 for the CC.
I suspect you're not going to get a fully black and white solution to this one.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Antrodemus

But then you'd still get the potential situation where an errant tyre/wheel nut/whatever is wobbling its way into the fast lane, and the car controller is the only person in a position to stop it. What then? Catch 22 for the CC.
I suspect you're not going to get a fully black and white solution to this one.

Completely agree, and any failure of the team to correctly control their wheels, wheel nuts or wheel changing equipment, or even themselves, becomes a team foul, with an accompanying penalty required.

So if the car controller does any of those things, in the interests of safety, then the penalty for the event whether it happens, or is prevented from happening by the now-distracted car controller, should be the same.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Antrodemus

But then you'd still get the potential situation where an errant tyre/wheel nut/whatever is wobbling its way into the fast lane, and the car controller is the only person in a position to stop it. What then? Catch 22 for the CC.
I suspect you're not going to get a fully black and white solution to this one.

Then the car controller screams on the radio that there is a tyre lose and the person responsible fixes the issue, And if he doesnt some one gets a drive through

That in my mind the whole idea of being a car controller. You dont let the car go until everything is completed by otehrs

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Completely agree, and any failure of the team to correctly control their wheels, wheel nuts or wheel changing equipment, or even themselves, becomes a team foul, with an accompanying penalty required.

So if the car controller does any of those things, in the interests of safety, then the penalty for the event whether it happens, or is prevented from happening by the now-distracted car controller, should be the same.

Originally Posted by peckstar

Then the car controller screams on the radio that there is a tyre lose and the person responsible fixes the issue, And if he doesnt some one gets a drive through

That in my mind the whole idea of being a car controller. You dont let the car go until everything is completed by otehrs

Guys, I think that there's a key point that you're missing here. If a cc was in a position to stop an errant tyre, wheel nut, whatever then they should be permitted to do so - thus removing the risk of injury to others in the pit lane. It's not all about penalties. If a tyre is already rolling, the cc might well be the closest person to it and the one who can stop it in the most safe and efficient manner.

That may well mean that the team's pit stop is slowed until the cc is back in a position to judge a safe release but that is a far better outcome than someone in pit lane or nearby getting sconed by an errant wheel that a team COULD have stopped.

I'd suggest that is why the rules are written the way they are.

The fact the commentators have said otherwise for some time is yet more proof that you can't take their word as gospel.

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Then the car controller screams on the radio that there is a tyre lose and the person responsible fixes the issue, And if he doesnt some one gets a drive through

That in my mind the whole idea of being a car controller. You dont let the car go until everything is completed by otehrs

In some ways this is the modern day, blindly regulated health and safety world that so many of us despise.

I'm in the electrical industry, and it is slowly heading this way for us too.

Picture this: the wheel is rolling very slowly towards the CC and the mechanics are working on the back of the car. All he can do is stand there yelling into the radio as the wheel rolls within a metre of him, he may even step out of its way to avoid a penalty as it touches him, while it rolls onto the pit lane with a mechanic chasing it.

Granted if the mechanics are doing their job right, the above shouldn't happen, but that's not the point here. It has happened, how should it be resolved?

The above is a situation I just don't want to see, and I hope the rules stay as they are, if perhaps slightly more clearly written. No work on the car, but obvious safety hazards not pertaining to the vehicle can be corrected.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Guys, I think that there's a key point that you're missing here. If a cc was in a position to stop an errant tyre, wheel nut, whatever then they should be permitted to do so - thus removing the risk of injury to others in the pit lane. It's not all about penalties. If a tyre is already rolling, the cc might well be the closest person to it and the one who can stop it in the most safe and efficient manner.

That may well mean that the team's pit stop is slowed until the cc is back in a position to judge a safe release but that is a far better outcome than someone in pit lane or nearby getting sconed by an errant wheel that a team COULD have stopped.

I'd suggest that is why the rules are written the way they are.

The fact the commentators have said otherwise for some time is yet more proof that you can't take their word as gospel.

In the worst case event, if there is a failure on the fuel rig, and the fuel is pishing all over the lane, the car controller is distracted, picking up a wheel nut in the fast lane , and is the furthest point from the fuel intake now anyway because he is so far away... they are not able to be in control of the spot, to communicate with the driver as all hell breaks loose behind the car, fire extinguishers going off, fuelmen pulling the nozzle from the car, the team running from the event.

That is worst case... isnt that what rules are for? Especially with regards to safety...