FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

GT3 cars are eligible in both series next year. So are you suggesting that one of them should fold?

Don't mind who, there is no (with dignity)world Sprint championship at sight (World economic climate (Crisis)), or car per brands ruleset=> are copy and paste, whoever brings more tv audience or track assistance (Whoever can bring more promotion to their series wins, bury deep the other).

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

WEC is going to be wickedly expensive, no matter the actual ruleset, that's just the nature of the FIA-label and the kind of schedule they are running.

I agree with that, which I why I suggested the GT class of WEC to be largely run by the manufacturers. They can easily afford a world championship after all.

As for ELMS - we'll have to see where that goes, if 2012 is anything to go buy, there won't be a lot of interest from the GT3 ranks to run in that series. Sure, a unified ruleset and potential LM invites might help somewhat, but right now I wouldn't think of ELMS as a stronger series than BES. One has 40 cars on the grid, the other has 14...

Come to think of it, I also struggle to see how ELMS can be successful post-2012. I understand the logic of the ELMS being a training ground for teams that like to run WEC and LeMans in the future. But in practice, it has already failed. However, one of these series has to go, if both run the same GT regulations in the future.

[...]and even ADAC GT seems to be in for some major shrinkage over the off season. With Kabel 1 most likely out of the picture, getting live TV will be quite a task and a lot of teams were less than thrilled with the way BoP was handled this year, so I think we'll be down to 25 cars or so next year.

Given that Kabel Eins wants to develop the GT Masters further, I'm confident that the series will stay on TV. Even if Kabel Eins pulls out, Sport1 might jump in (Not that I'd like that...). But the organizers really have to fix the BoP issues. It was already bad to lose a team like Reiter, and it would be even worse if other teams start pulling out.

Blancpain is going to be fine... it's the other series I am worried about.

In the moment, Blancpain is definitely fine. In the future...probably, but I wouldn't say it for sure...yet.

[Graham Goodwin]

The proposal is being debated with ALL of the manufacturers via the FIA - There is likely to be a long transition period where current machinery would still be eligible alongside any new cars.

SRO have already recognised some of the issues on rampant development costs in GT3 by controlling it throuh sporting regs from next year - There are not enough GTE teams coming forward to sustain the current regs there either - Putting both classes together over a sensible period of time is the single most sensible proposal I've heard in a long time.

There is NO proposal for current GT3s to be eligible for Le Mans/ WEC though they are to be eligible for ELMS in the GTC class. Performance balancing to accommodate that might see GTEs speeded up, or GT3s slowed down

[Simmi]

Graham - do you think it might put pay to a few of the rumours GT3-to-GTE conversions that have been rumoured?

[Graham Goodwin]

There's little reason why it should - My guess would be no new class cars before 2015 with a transition period of at least 2 years - That means any new car coming next year could have a competitive life of 5 years with a likely solution that sees much of the tech transferrable anyway.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm interested in how this new class plays out in the technology front. Many of today's sports cars are coming out with hybrids or alternative power trains and this trend will only continue. How do these higher tech cars fit into a formula that is supposed to be cheaper? I like the idea of cost savings but I don't want to see the cars dumbed down.

That's what the prototype classes and garage 56 are for, primarily.

Of course, all manufacturers want to be seen as green and innovative but you don't turn a petrol-burning supercar in to an even faster racing car whilst waving a Greenpeace flag. GT racing will always be about racing sportscars against one another, and things like hybrids will always be secondary.

Diesel engine, bio-fuels, hybrids and turbine engines have been part of prototype racing for decades now, whilst in GT racing, we're yet to see a hybrid or diesel.

I don't see GT3 cars as particularly dumbed down versions of GTE cars.

To me, this move makes sense. GTE is on the brink of being too expensive and over-the-top, while GT3 has clearly got a lot going for it, and even if you were to create a new rulebook that would wipe away half the world's GT3 teams, you still have a very very healthy formula!

[JAG__]

I see there being three key points for the new regulations.

1. Chassis regs standardised like GTE.

2. Engine regs more liberal in terms of location and source, you cannot force manufacturers down the costly homologation special route if you want to entice a wide variety.

3. Provision for new technology like hybrids and a move towards fuel-flow limiters to encourage efficiency. Air-restrictors limit the potential of engines and have little road-relevance.

[NaBUru38]

If costs scalate, it will be terrible as usual. If the rules are too strict, the cars will be boring and uninteresting. They must find the exact sweet spot.

I'd mandate GT-Am cars to run a stricter rev limiter and allow them traction control and anti-lock brakes. No driver assists for GT-Pro cars, please!

I'm sure that the new North American sports car championship will try to adopt these rules, but twist them according to their needs.

[lms]

hybrids in the new gt category would be a nightmare, as it would cost too much for privateers and we would be back to 2 gt categories soon, one for private teams one for factory teams (like gt3 and gte). Some manufacturers want to race hybrids? then they should build an lmp1 car. there is no place for hybrids in gt (currently. who knows what 2015 will bring)

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by lms

hybrids in the new gt category would be a nightmare, as it would cost too much for privateers and we would be back to 2 gt categories soon, one for private teams one for factory teams (like gt3 and gte). Some manufacturers want to race hybrids? then they should build an lmp1 car. there is no place for hybrids in gt (currently. who knows what 2015 will bring)

Hybrids are necessary, Le Mans is supposed to be I+D, and how many GT3 spec cars are gonna be hybrid?? The hypercars will be hybrid, but not the supercars/GT, the hybrid specs at short term come from low spec cars, like the Honda NSX successor. If there is no $$$$ for hybrids why not a GT3+ for manufacturers instead??, then there is no use to the merge..

[JAG__]

Originally Posted by lms

hybrids in the new gt category would be a nightmare, as it would cost too much for privateers and we would be back to 2 gt categories soon, one for private teams one for factory teams (like gt3 and gte). Some manufacturers want to race hybrids? then they should build an lmp1 car. there is no place for hybrids in gt (currently. who knows what 2015 will bring)

If you consider this GT ruleset will take us from 2015-'20, I see it as inconceivable there wouldn't be provision for hybrids, they'll be standard fit in many supercars. Cost savings can come by retaining more road parts, restricting exotic materials, electronics etc.

I wouldn't be averse to having a GT1 class for manufacturers and hybrids, GT2 for standard cars, that makes more sense to me than dividing cars based on driving talent.

[Simmi]

You'd have to have a separate class for hybrids in my opinion.

You can't say hybrids only belong in LMP or G56 when you look at the latest crop of supercars.

I'd like to see hybrid cars given more power and into the GT1 performance gap ahead of the new GT class. Obviously it would be the domain of manufacturers.


EDIT: JAG said the same thing albeit two minutes earlier.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I'd like to see hybrid cars given more power and into the GT1 performance gap ahead of the new GT class.

lmp2 ang gte are already too close, and 4 classes would be too much. gt1 cars were harassing the lmp2s in 2010.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by lms

lmp2 ang gte are already too close, and 4 classes would be too much. gt1 cars were harassing the lmp2s in 2010.

Yeah but you can't really restrict yourself to thinking about what it's like now. As none of these prospective changes would come in for a good few years.

[JAG__]

Originally Posted by lms

lmp2 ang gte are already too close, and 4 classes would be too much. gt1 cars were harassing the lmp2s in 2010.

You could have a factory/hybrid GT1 class that wasn't much quicker than a regular GT2, it's advantage would come from better fuel consumption (plus pro drivers if this was enforced), not too dissimilar to the '14 P1 proposals.

[Maelochs]

The new class would have to include hybrids to be viable, I think, because m,ore manufacturers seem to be building hybrid sports cars, which they will want to promote through racing (why else race?)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG__

If you consider this GT ruleset will take us from 2015-'20, I see it as inconceivable there wouldn't be provision for hybrids, they'll be standard fit in many supercars. Cost savings can come by retaining more road parts, restricting exotic materials, electronics etc.

GTE isn't a class for 'supercars' right now, though... All more on the bread-and-butter side as far as the respective manufacturers' lineups are concerned (not counting GM and BMW for the moment), and I don't think that this class of road cars will have lots of hybrid tech anytime soon.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by lms

Some manufacturers want to race hybrids? then they should build an lmp1 car.

As a fan hard to argue this. Not so sure all manufacturers will feel this.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

and I don't think that this class of road cars will have lots of hybrid tech anytime soon.

The Gallardo replacer could be hybrid, the R8 replacer could be hybrid, we don't know, and in three years will both be on streets.

[gwyllion]

Very recently, the CEO of Lamborghini has formally denied that there are plans to build a hybrid car. They intend to improve fuel efficiency by making lighter cars.

Winkelmann told a small group of automotive media including CarAdvice at the 2012 Paris Motor Show that “there is no plug-in hybrid planned for the either the Lamborghini Gallardo or Aventador”.

“Due to the size of the cars and due to the weight of the hybridisation it would be impossible for our cars to adopt this current technology,” Winkelmann said.

“Firstly, it won’t fit, and secondly, it would reduce the their power-to-weight ratios by too much.”

source: http://www.caradvice.com.au/194182/l...id-technology/

[gucom]

Hmmm I'm not sure if it's possible to combine the opposed interests of manufacturers looking for exposure and marketing, and gentleman racers looking to be competitive on a budget.

So, how about this idea for a general outline of the ruleset.

First of all, there's a fixed set of rules determining how much you can change the cars, like GTE has nowadays.

Secondly, there's a cost cap: for instance, the highest of either € 300.000, or the homologation car's showroom price + € 50.000. So, if you have a very expensive (and presumably sporty / fast) base car (Ferrari for instance), there's only so much you can do to change it, or you'll exceed your budget. If you have a cheaper (and presumably slower) base car, there'll be a lot of things you can change before you exceed your budget.

The rulebook makes sure no1 really runs away from the rest of the pack, while the cost cap keeps things affordable and reduces the inherent advantage of supercars.

One challenge that I see with this model is how to prevent the manufacturers from selling their cars below cost price; I don't know how this is handled in LMP2, but I assume there're provisions for this? The more these rules would be used internationally, and the more of these cars are being purchased, the costlier it would be to sell your cars below cost price... and the set of rules would mean that even if a manufacturer doesn't mind throwing money at it, their advantage would be limited (GTE currently has no runaway competitors, although much of that might be waiver-related).

[JAG__]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

GTE isn't a class for 'supercars' right now, though... All more on the bread-and-butter side as far as the respective manufacturers' lineups are concerned (not counting GM and BMW for the moment), and I don't think that this class of road cars will have lots of hybrid tech anytime soon.

What do you consider soon, these regs would be for '15-'20 so would encompass next gen versions of current cars, possibly the one after too.

With stricter emissions/mpg laws coming into force, not only for individual models, but across the range, manufacturers are going to be forced into significant weight and engine size reductions, running a larger normally aspirated engine is going to be difficult without a form of hybrid system to offset the poorer emissions/mpg.

[rich07]

Call me cynical but it looks to me like the FIA and ACO are looking to grab the pot of gold that is the GT3 class and all the manufacturers in it from Ratel.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by rich07

Call me cynical but it looks to me like the FIA and ACO are looking to grab the pot of gold that is the GT3 class and all the manufacturers in it from Ratel.

Who do you think homologates GT3 cars? It isn't Stephane!

And SRO have already acknowledged the growing issue of escalating development costs in GT3 - If you have one class that's raceable everywhere then the best package, the best racing and the best events will prevail - whoever the race organiser. I can't see how that can be anything other than a good thing.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Who do you think homologates GT3 cars? It isn't Stephane!

That be true and all but I was under the impression that the whole FIA GT3 class was Ratels idea. Mark one down to SRO marketing....