HSCC launches Historic Modsports and Saloons

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.

The trouble is that these old cars from the 1970s that may be still around would not be eligible for the new HSCC series as they would all have substantially modified or flared wheel arches which aren't allowed in the revised regs from HSCC.

[rbs]

Originally Posted by morninggents

But there were many sports racing car based Skodas around since 1975 if I remember correctly. Also a few John Robinson space frame Escorts from about the same time. Also, the fantastic Super Saloon cars were emerging at that time.

There were numerous super saloon cars about in the late sixties and early 70's the Merfield Cortinas, Maudlings Corsair, Bennions Minor, Sanilands Standard and Tarrants A40 to name a few. Super Saloons was just a new name for cars that had existed for several years that were getting to quick for the average Special Saloon grid. These earlier cars were quite scruffy compared to the more modern ones and you have to wonder how safe they would be now.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by rbs

There were numerous super saloon cars about in the late sixties and early 70's the Merfield Cortinas, Maudlings Corsair, Bennions Minor, Sanilands Standard and Tarrants A40 to name a few. Super Saloons was just a new name for cars that had existed for several years that were getting to quick for the average Special Saloon grid. These earlier cars were quite scruffy compared to the more modern ones and you have to wonder how safe they would be now.

I actually raced against many that you name, which were all built to the Special Saloon regs, plus, of course, Richard Scantlebury's Janglia (later sold to and campaigned by Mick Hill) and was able to compete easily against them with tamer, plain vanilla 1650cc Anglia.

And in answer to another poster, the Special Saloon regs made them a silhouette class of car meaning that we were able to run with extended wheel arches that could adequately cover the oversize wheels that many of us ran with. Having said that, some competitors chose not to, like the Merfield Cortina which from memory just had a lip not quite extending to the outer edge of the tyres.

And then in the late 60s, cars started running with the bulbous wings that originally came with the Escorts.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

CSCC allow much later cars, IIRC there are some from the 90's in it. The genuine older cars from the 60s and 70s cannot be competitive therefore they are few and far between. Hence AIUI HSCC biasing their rules to 60s and 70s only. Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.

The CSCC age limit is 1993, iirc, the cut off being planned to incorporate the Thundersaloons category cars, although there are separate classes for pre 93 cars with more modern engines, due to customer demand.
Early cars can be competitive within their respective classes, but not at the front, for some reason they don’t want to come out to play!!!
Plenty of people are happy to race within a multi-class structure and not be at the front - if only front runners raced, the grids would be very small.
Some members of the MG car club are worried for the future of their “Class A Midgets”.
The HSCC are definitely poaching.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by andy97

The HSCC are definitely poaching.

The HSCC series is for period engined cars which is totally different from CSCC's series. It also has a far earlier cut off date. Cars will be more like the special saloons of the 1960 - 1974 period.


As for poaching I think CSCC has done it's share in the past. I think it was even conceived to do that.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by morninggents

The HSCC series is for period engined cars which is totally different from CSCC's series. It also has a far earlier cut off date. Cars will be more like the special saloons of the 1960 - 1974 period.


As for poaching I think CSCC has done it's share in the past. I think it was even conceived to do that.

Period engined cars can run with CSCC Saloons and Modsports and in the MG Spridget series.

When CSCC was established no one else was running 40 min races with a pit stop and it was its USP for a while. Now virtuallly every club runs very similar series. And, as I said, some in the MG car club are concerned about the future of their “class A” cars.

[midgetman]

The Midget Challenge seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis at the moment. When I raced in it, it was a starter series for cheap sports cars. Now of course that accolade goes to Mazda MX-5s and the like as the MGs are not a starter sports car. So it's a "historic" series but even the "road going" cars are developed past the normal "historic" levels.

When MiniMM raced with them in August, there was just two Class A cars on track, one of which broke. I don't think there are many left out there and can't really see why anyone would build one. Rather than poach drivers from the Midgets, maybe another series would encourage more builds as there is somewhere else to race besides the handful of Challenge rounds. Sounds like the HSCC could be a good thing.



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[andy97]

Originally Posted by midgetman

The Midget Challenge seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis at the moment. When I raced in it, it was a starter series for cheap sports cars. Now of course that accolade goes to Mazda MX-5s and the like as the MGs are not a starter sports car. So it's a "historic" series but even the "road going" cars are developed past the normal "historic" levels.

When MiniMM raced with them in August, there was just two Class A cars on track, one of which broke. I don't think there are many left out there and can't really see why anyone would build one. Rather than poach drivers from the Midgets, maybe another series would encourage more builds as there is somewhere else to race besides the handful of Challenge rounds. Sounds like the HSCC could be a good thing.



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I know a chap with 4 x class A cars between him and his son and he is aware of several more. They are out there, just need encouraging out!

[midgetman]

Like I said, maybe a different/extra series would make it worth running them.

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[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by morninggents

The trouble is that these old cars from the 1970s that may be still around would not be eligible for the new HSCC series as they would all have substantially modified or flared wheel arches which aren't allowed in the revised regs from HSCC.

I've just re-read the draft regs for 2023 and cannot find any reference to restrictions on wheel arches. Are you perhaps conflating wheel arches with wings? I may of course have missed something and stand to be corrected...

[morninggents]

No, I understood the bit about wings, but I may have been mistaken when I read section 5.14.1 of the revised regs. It states that in side view the silhouete must remain unaltered above the wheel centre line. I assumed this meant wheel arches could not be modified.
Are wheel arch extensions or modifications allowed?

P.S. Well done with the Spa finish.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by andy97

When CSCC was established no one else was running 40 min races with a pit stop and it was its USP for a while. Now virtuallly every club runs very similar series. And, as I said, some in the MG car club are concerned about the future of their “class A” cars.

I thought Julius Thurgood's Top Hat series were doing 40 minute pit stop/two driver events then.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by morninggents

No, I understood the bit about wings, but I may have been mistaken when I read section 5.14.1 of the revised regs. It states that in side view the silhouete must remain unaltered above the wheel centre line. I assumed this meant wheel arches could not be modified.
Are wheel arch extensions or modifications allowed?

P.S. Well done with the Spa finish.

Peter, I have always assumed that being silhouette meant looking at the car from the side, very much as was the case for Special Saloons. This then means that wheel arches can be modified to accept wider wheels/tyres.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I thought Julius Thurgood's Top Hat series were doing 40 minute pit stop/two driver events then.

In 2002/3? Fair enough, if so.

[Peter Mallett]

It sounds about right. I recall Bernie Chodosh joining in at Spa around that time.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by morninggents

No, I understood the bit about wings, but I may have been mistaken when I read section 5.14.1 of the revised regs. It states that in side view the silhouete must remain unaltered above the wheel centre line. I assumed this meant wheel arches could not be modified.
Are wheel arch extensions or modifications allowed?

P.S. Well done with the Spa finish.

Thanks, that last hour and a quarter in dark & wet & lots of spray was a bit of a challenge for these old eyes

As Mike H said, a side view silhouette above wheel centres is just the outline of the whole car and I can't think of one where the arches would exceed this. Now if they'd said in plan view (aka bird's eye view) you'd be correct !

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Peter, I have always assumed that being silhouette meant looking at the car from the side, very much as was the case for Special Saloons. This then means that wheel arches can be modified to accept wider wheels/tyres.

Yes, you and MGDavid are correct and I read it wrong. I put it down to age. And stupidity.

[Moby]

Just to help clarify a few things up.

Firstly the HSCC are not poaching, in fact of the 44 cars which lined up on the GP circuit at Brands Hatch last year for the CSCC, only one car would have been eligible for the HSCC series.

I have since had enquiries for some cars which I have turned down and sent them to the CSCC. The CSCC is a good series with some great cars, but allows modern engines, sequential gearboxes, forced induction etc.. So as someone has already commented from a different era and specification. Competitors in the older cars didn't mind not winning, but were concerned about having to watch mirrors all the time because of the speed differential. You still get a differential with the older cars, but not to anywhere near the same extent.

There are no restrictions on wheel arches.

The reason for citing the 1979 regulations are that the series is for pre-1980 cars, so the reg's up to 1979 are relevant and yes there were a set of reg's in the 1979 Technical Manual for 'Special Saloons', repeated almost word for word in the revised HSCC regulations. I have the 1973, 1976 and the 1979 so can relate differences to reg's throughout the 1970's.

Hopefully this clears up some misunderstandings. The series has more than 60 registrations of interest so far and still growing, I know that doesn't always mean cars on the grid, but it shows its a period and set of reg's that is credible.

Happy to discuss anything further.

Kind regards,

Steve Watton
Chairman Historic Modsports and Special Saloons.

[Moby]

HSCC Historic Modsports & Special Saloons 2023 Calendar

I thought I would update you on latest news.
I have just been sent the calendar for 2023 and what a fantastic set of meetings we have, 6 meetings, all composed of 15 minutes qualifying and 2 x 20 minute races.

We have races on the Brands Hatch and the Silverstone GP circuits as well as visits to Donington Park, Snetterton, the Croft Historic Festival and rounding off back at Silverstone for the finals meeting at the end of the season.


This shows the support the HSCC are giving the series and is testament to everyone who has competed this year or has shown interest and has pledged to come and compete with us next year. We have a great springboard here to develop the series into another of the HSCC’s Historic Racing Portfolio.


The full calendar with dates is:


Sat 22nd – Sun 23rd April Snetterton

Sat 27th – Sun 28th May Silverstone GP Circuit

Sat 24th – Sun 25th Jun Donington Park

Sat 15th – Sun 16th Jul Brands Hatch GP Circuit

Sat 2nd – Sun 3rd Aug Croft Historic Festival

Sat 14th – Sun 15th Oct Silverstone Final Meeting



Steve Watton

Chairman Historic Modsports & Special Saloons

Historic Sports Car Club

[morninggents]

Has your participation at the Silverstone GP and Brands Hatch GP meetings been confirmed by HSCC?

[Moby]

Yes, subject to the usual contract signing process between the club and Silverstone