Entry Levels at Historic Race Meetings

[Mike Crow]

Originally Posted by Belmondo

HSCC Donington entries are now up on their website, and look reasonably healthy.

That’s better! Good to see a few cars from Europe too. Donington is too far for me theses days so I am hoping for similar at Brands Hatch in July

[356sc]

Originally Posted by Duddha

…..Oh and before I forget, if people were also to take it a little less seriously, it would maybe be more sustainable to everyone.

Amen to that!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by 356sc

Amen to that!

seconded.

[GCCheddaris]

Originally Posted by Belmondo

HSCC Donington entries are now up on their website, and look reasonably healthy.

There are three circuits in this country which are almost guaranteed large entries, namely the current and former Grand Prix circuits Silverstone, Donington and Brands Hatch. A better gauge of the situation will be when the HSCC travel to the likes of Oulton Park, especially the club meeting the weekend after the Gold Cup and Croft in the north east. I hope the entries hold up for these meetings but I won't be surprised if the entries are somewhat lower.

[Paul D]

Having just read through this thread, I have to agree with most of the sentiments contained herein.

I am one of those lesser-spotted self-preparers, and we do definitely seem to be a dying breed. Racing with the CSCC, we often see the paddock area allocated to the various series' run by the club. And sometimes you could be mistaken for thinking you are in a paddock for touring cars or GT racing, such is the level of artics and other obviously professional team vehicles present. It's more noticeable in certain series', with Swinging Sixties being an obvious example, where there is regularly a line of a dozen or more fully kitted out artics - it looks more akin to an F1 paddock than club racing!

Now I'm sorry - and I can't, in all honesty, say that I wouldn't do the same if I was loaded - but to me, that's not club racing. It's reminiscent of the 'big fish in a small pond' mentality. If you can afford to run that sort of team, then I really think you should be aiming a little higher with your choice of events and leave the club racing to those who can't afford to compete at a higher level. But, of course, the pot-hunters won't do that, because it's harder to bag said pot if you're further up the chain. I honestly believe that's one of the reasons for the success of some series', as they offer the well-healed competitor an opportunity to buy a significant advantage.

Or at least, they did, until everyone else with money joined them, and then it just becomes a financial race to the top, with the genuine club racers left languishing in the wake of mega-bucks machinery and being forced to either be happy trundling around mid-pack, or just get disillusioned and jack it all in. I believe this is happening now, and whilst some are happy to trundle around mid-pack, I think a lot are just giving up as they simply can't keep up with the machinery that's appeared in many supposedly grass-roots series in recent years.

I race in Future Classics, and have definitely noticed a significant number of regulars fall by the wayside in recent years, whilst during the same period, the machines at the sharp end have increased massively in both performance and value.

Go back to 2010 and no one in Future Classics had lapped the full Circuit at Oulton in under two minutes - now the number of cars competing in the series that can comfortably beat that time is probably close to double figures, yet the rules haven't changed significantly during that time.

So I'm with Max - a limit on tyres would be a great leveller. And how about 'pump fuel' actually meaning just that? Get rid of all this 100+ octane fuel at a fiver a litre or more, and make sure we all do actually use fuel that's readily available on a normal garage forecourt.

[zefarelly]

Paul, Whilst I tihnk we agree generally, budget has always eased people up the grid, to a point.

A limit on tyres may help, but there would be ways round it I'm sure.

Modern Pump fuel isn't good enough for old engines at any level of tune above poverty spec . . . They were never designed to run like that. I think the regs are good as they are, as you say, they haven't changed in 25 years for pre66 App K, but Cortinas are 10s a lap faster round Goodwood??? Trouble bring nothings enforced, thats they big problem. It's not financially or practically viable to do so.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Paul, Whilst I tihnk we agree generally, budget has always eased people up the grid, to a point.

A limit on tyres may help, but there would be ways round it I'm sure.

Modern Pump fuel isn't good enough for old engines at any level of tune above poverty spec . . . They were never designed to run like that. I think the regs are good as they are, as you say, they haven't changed in 25 years for pre66 App K, but Cortinas are 10s a lap faster round Goodwood??? Trouble bring nothings enforced, thats they big problem. It's not financially or practically viable to do so.

Zef, CSCC Future classics are for cars of the 70s and 80s and should be quite well able to run on “normal” super unleaded. My pinto Escort does.
Restricting tyres is a good shout. In Magnificent 7s, Avon introduced a new “ extreme” version of their ZZR about two years ago; instantly 2-3 secs a lap faster but dont last long and folks are now having a new set per meeting. Ridiculous and not sustainable either. The older version used to last me a season!!!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Paul, Whilst I tihnk we agree generally, budget has always eased people up the grid, to a point.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by zefarelly

A limit on tyres may help, but there would be ways round it I'm sure.

And this is what happens with App K, we are required to use tyres that only really work well when new or relatively new. I'd suggest a max of 8hrs per set for racing. They can be used for test days after that.

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Modern Pump fuel isn't good enough for old engines at any level of tune above poverty spec . . . They were never designed to run like that. I think the regs are good as they are, as you say, they haven't changed in 25 years for pre66 App K, but Cortinas are 10s a lap faster round Goodwood??? Trouble bring nothings enforced, thats they big problem. It's not financially or practically viable to do so.

Enforcement is a big problem but when the big teams are also sponsoring the event/series the appetite for stricter regulation probably disappears.

This is App K and, as Andy says, rules for other series may be more adjustable.

[delta]

So Dr Bob has gone back home and I am now getting back on with some outstanding jobs and customers cars. Rolling road tomorrow with my Lotus 22. If all goes well I thought I would enter Gold Cup. Checked and there is space but at £555.00 entry fee I have thought otherwise. Its not that i do not have the money its just i cant get my head around justifying spending out so much money.
No idea now what the future holds as I am sure the entry fees will not go down.I do not think i am alone with these thoughts.Grim days ahead.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by delta

So Dr Bob has gone back home and I am now getting back on with some outstanding jobs and customers cars. Rolling road tomorrow with my Lotus 22. If all goes well I thought I would enter Gold Cup. Checked and there is space but at £555.00 entry fee I have thought otherwise. Its not that i do not have the money its just i cant get my head around justifying spending out so much money.
No idea now what the future holds as I am sure the entry fees will not go down.I do not think i am alone with these thoughts.Grim days ahead.

What is the track time for the £555?
It would be interesting to compare with other series.
I doubt that Oulton Park is any more expensive to hire for this meeting as opposed to others.

[Mike Harte]

It's interesting that although £555 sounds like, and certainly is, a lot of money to go racing, however, using an online inflation calculator, that is only a little more than double what we were paying back in the sixties for 15 minutes of practice including qualifying, followed by a 10 lap race which is not a lot at tracks like Brands Indy or Mallory.

And in my case, that was about half a weeks wages from my day job.

I think that I may have mentioned this before, but I was forced to give up at the end of 1970 because my pre-crossflow pushrod engine had come to the end of it's development and was no longer able to keep up with the twin cam boys that were then dominating. Back then, a refurbished twin cam would have cost around £10,000 which coincidently is what you would need to pay for brand new 2 litre twin cams nowadays that push out a lot more than the twinkies from my racing days.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by delta

So Dr Bob has gone back home and I am now getting back on with some outstanding jobs and customers cars. Rolling road tomorrow with my Lotus 22. If all goes well I thought I would enter Gold Cup. Checked and there is space but at £555.00 entry fee I have thought otherwise. Its not that i do not have the money its just i cant get my head around justifying spending out so much money.
No idea now what the future holds as I am sure the entry fees will not go down.I do not think i am alone with these thoughts.Grim days ahead.

This is kind of where I am . . . After a few tough years I'm in a better position and have a bit more pocket money, and can thankfully afford it, but it doesn't seem like a sensible investment in my time/money, the entry is only half of it then theres all the time prepping & traveling etc.

Having always done everything myself it's now easy to see why those with big budgets waft in, race and exit stage left while someone else sweeps up. I guess as we get older time becomes more precious.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's interesting that although £555 sounds like, and certainly is, a lot of money to go racing, however, using an online inflation calculator, that is only a little more than double what we were paying back in the sixties for 15 minutes of practice including qualifying, followed by a 10 lap race which is not a lot at tracks like Brands Indy or Mallory.

And in my case, that was about half a weeks wages from my day job.

I think that I may have mentioned this before, but I was forced to give up at the end of 1970 because my pre-crossflow pushrod engine had come to the end of it's development and was no longer able to keep up with the twin cam boys that were then dominating. Back then, a refurbished twin cam would have cost around £10,000 which coincidently is what you would need to pay for brand new 2 litre twin cams nowadays that push out a lot more than the twinkies from my racing days.

You can't build a brand new 1598 TC for that, I think the 2L day s are gone theyre so unrelaiable, although a few others will clarify if needed.

Whats change is it al went revvy, then big capacity and torque ( 2L) then back to ~FiA, and FiA ++ and ridiculous revs, and all the trickery/cost/servicing that goes with it when you're pushing 9000+

15 years ago, even 10 years ago an engine was for a season, at least, now I've ehard as little as 4 hours, which is what, 2 meetings? And a gearbox every race!

[morninggents]

I ran 1860cc/1930cc/1970cc twincams in a Cortina for 25 years in HRSR/HSCC championships and blew 3 engines. The last two were within a year and caused by a dry sump pipe being nipped by the engine. My fault for not noticing soon enough so I would count two blown engines in 25 years - not a bad record. I used 4 professional engine builders and the cranks used were 82mm, 83.5mm and 84mm stroke. The most powerful (205 bhp) used the 82mm crank and the most torquey (and best) engine used the 83.5mm crank. Max revs were 8,200 with the 82mm but only 7,200 with the 84mm. Later Tim Davies used a Neil Brown 2 litre engine and won consecutive championships with a 100% finishing record over 2 seasons. So big twincams can be reliable.

[Plantagenet]

I agree with the sentiments above. In classic formula ford, we have been kicked off the Gold Cup weekend and we are now racing at a stand alone MSV weekend - yet it is still over £500. Donnington was over £500 this year too. For context, other race weekends with HSCC are about £400.
I don't want to be a southern snob but i don't think either circuit justifies this and I personally think only Brands GP and Silverstone GP justify that level of money in the UK.
[tin hat now firmly in place.....]

[Mike Harte]

Joe, I should have been more specific in that I wasn't talking about FIA or those types of meetings; it was more about Special Saloon racing.

As Peter above says, these engines can be reliable if properly maintained. In my case, I had one engine failure in 5 years of racing when a head gasket failed at the slowing down lap at the end of a race, due to what proved to have been a badly produced gasket.

This reliability was the product of regular maintenance of the engine; a change of the head gasket after every race, and a complete strip-down and rebuild after each second race. Unlike Peter, I did this myself with the help of a local oily rag who was very good at the setting up/retuning part of the rebuilds. All self taught on my part, learning how to build the engine from stripping it down. Oh, and I tried, if I could afford it, to race every other week from April through to the end of October.

Back in the sixties, choice was so limited and now I can only remember the Cosworth twin-cams. Now we have more, like the Millingtons and others, and if you don't abuse them and keep them maintained properly, they will continue to give good results.

As for gearboxes, I used two which had different ratios for long and shorter tracks, plus three different ratio diffs. They all lasted, along with the original (for racing) half shafts. Again, regular maintenance and trying not to abuse them.

The only other major expense was tyres, which were treaded scrubbed Firestones Indy ones that I managed to get from the States, and which I changed at the end of each season.

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by delta

So Dr Bob has gone back home and I am now getting back on with some outstanding jobs and customers cars. Rolling road tomorrow with my Lotus 22. If all goes well I thought I would enter Gold Cup. Checked and there is space but at £555.00 entry fee I have thought otherwise. Its not that i do not have the money its just i cant get my head around justifying spending out so much money.
No idea now what the future holds as I am sure the entry fees will not go down.I do not think i am alone with these thoughts.Grim days ahead.

Iain, does that mean your season with Dr Bob & the Elite is now finished, or will he be returning for more?

[Willmaz223]

https://www.motorracinglegends.com/w...on-2022-v1.pdf

The trend sadly continues. 13 Cars for a 3 Hour race is quite horrific.

How on earth they thought they would get the entries for a GT40 race at Snetterton is beyond me.

[Peter Mallett]

The entry for the thee hour races last year was 1950 per race. Even splitting it between three you are talking 1k each to cover tyres and fuel not to mention prep.

Nothing wrong with Snetterton as a circuit.

[Lancsbreaker]

Over the last 14 years or so when I was sharing a drive in Future Classics with CSCC, initially with a 944 Turbo, and latterly with the Alfa 75 V6, I think we generally reckoned that the cost per race was about £1k, taking into account entry fee, car prep and maintenance, fuel and accommodation/food expenses, although prudently we never actually recorded it too closely.....as Paul can attest we were seldom troubling the upper echelons, although latterly in a wet race the Alfa was capable of holding its own.


Back in 2008 entry fees (for 30 minutes qualy, 40 minutes race). were £265 - £295. By 2017, we were paying £385, and by last year that was up to £410. The informal arrangement we had, much as we'd had throughout our rallying years, was that I paid the entry fee and my own travel and accommodation etc expenses, whilst Steve owned the car and did the prep (with help if I was needed ), and transported the car to the races and fuelled it (mostly).



In recent years, both of us being retired on OK but not generous pensions, we'd dropped back from 7 or 8 meets a year to 4 or so - now that Steve has decided to pack it in, I "could" afford to buy the car off him and do a few events, but I'd really struggle to justify it....although the flood of adverts for equity release do tempt me, as I have no offspring depending on me funding their future housing Not sure milady who does have offspring, and their offspring, and their offspring would agree, though!


So - costs probably haven't risen hugely, relatively speaking, but there is a lot more competition for the "classic/historic" competitor, as more organisers belatedly realise this is a successful sector, just as we Boomers who fuelled the flourishing scene get older and probably cut back a bit........ I guess over time it should shake out, with a few organisers catching a cold. I'll watch with interest (and a bit of sulking at the trackside )

[GCCheddaris]

Originally Posted by GCCheddaris

There are three circuits in this country which are almost guaranteed large entries, namely the current and former Grand Prix circuits Silverstone, Donington and Brands Hatch. A better gauge of the situation will be when the HSCC travel to the likes of Oulton Park, especially the club meeting the weekend after the Gold Cup and Croft in the north east. I hope the entries hold up for these meetings but I won't be surprised if the entries are somewhat lower.

The low entries at Snetterton aren't really a great surprise, especially the GT40s whose race even at the popular Donington was canned due to a lack of entries. Snetterton is probably a great circuit, but like Thruxton it suffers from the fact that it lies away from the motor racing heartland in the midlands and doesn't have the perceived cachet of being a current or former Grand Prix circuit.

The country is going through the worst depression for decades and inevitably people are having to cut back. However, come the Silverstone Classic and Spa I suspect entries will come flowing in once again.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes, gone are the days when we'd go to any. Circuit just to race.

[L-G Sjöberg]

The entry fee for each race in the Swedish historic championship this year is SEK 3600, which is approx £288. At some of the races, foreign entries get a deduct of SEK 1000 to compensate for ferry or toll bridge costs. For that you get two sessions of untimed practice, then qualifying and finally two races of approx 20 minutes each. But of course you need to get over here...

[delta]

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

The entry fee for each race in the Swedish historic championship this year is SEK 3600, which is approx £288. At some of the races, foreign entries get a deduct of SEK 1000 to compensate for ferry or toll bridge costs. For that you get two sessions of untimed practice, then qualifying and finally two races of approx 20 minutes each. But of course you need to get over here...

Baltic tour in 2023 and then I am leaving the 22 with you lars. If thats OK.

[delta]

The Delta /Dr Bob race program is not finished yet John. There are lots of track I need to take him to. I had better take him to Croix.