fire tender rolls at brands hatch??

[Apple]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I really can't hold my tongue any longer, so here goes.....

If you werent there and DIRECTLY involved in this incident, please stop making assumptions about what did or did not happen!

I was there, I KNOW what happened. I will not post anything more about this incident in a public forum as this is not the place for unfounded speculation

I'm with you on that.
Well said.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

a - there but for the grace of god..
b - the other man's incident is always the easiest to deal with

(Did I mention I nearly put one of the old green Vauxhall minivans in the gravel when the pig just understeered through that corner?)

Amen to that I live in dread of sticking a course car in a gravel trap or nerfing a barrier.

[IanBurt]

This is only my opinion of the incident witnessed first hand standing on the bank at the exact spot where it happened.
The fire truck / pick-up came on to the track, and in my opinion was travelling at quite a speed round the corner and down the hill, the suspension appeared to be quite loaded on the passengers side, as it natrually would be travelling round a right hand bend, the back end of the vehicle then started to step out, i believe that speed had a part to play in this but also i think that had the diesel not been on the ground the fire truck may not have lost control.
The driver did his best to correct the spin but it was too much too control, with the centre of gravity being high up the suspension loaded from one side to the other quite vilolently as the truck went through its spin and caused it to overload and send the vehicle in to a flip, the truck slid on its roof for a few split seconds before finally gripping and righting itself with the momentum.
As the truck flippped i was viewing through my camera as i had quickly grabbed it as i saw things unfolding, I believe from what i saw, the driver wasnt wearing a seat belt (again this is just my opinion) as he appeared to be thrown around in the cab quite a lot, and i also have photographic evidence which appears to show the back of the driver filling up the space of the window while the vehicle is upside-down at an angle that i believe wouldnt be possible if he was wearing a seat belt.

I am glad that everyone on the day was ok and i think mistakes have been made and can learned from, but i also think that this was more of a freak accident and probably could never have been planned for.

This is my account of what happened and are just my opinions based on what i saw.

[chezza]

Originally Posted by SPECTATORSAL

Indeed...."the accident was just that"....

In the absence of flags perhaps someone should have sent the driver a radio controlled message to warn him about the spillage but it's easy to talk about this after the event!

The main thing is that they are both OK....obviously!

Maybe race control weren't aware of a diesel spillage at the time they asked the FT to attend? Therefore they couldn't have sent a message to the truck.

Originally Posted by davyboy

Nice.

May I remind you that everyone here is entitled to voice their opinion. You do not have to agree with it and if you want to remain silent... then do exactly that ! Ya ?

As long as we're allowed to speculate on your marshalling ability when you do anything wrong thats fine.

This incident is just like any other that we are involved with and really shouldn't be spectulated and discussed as this could potentially affect any investigation.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chezza

As long as we're allowed to speculate on your marshalling ability when you do anything wrong thats fine.

Please feel free to speculate all you like on my non-existent marshalling ability whenever I do anything at all wrong I'd just like to inform you that the wife has said that I've shoved dark socks into a white wash a few minutes ago... so off you go with some speculation !

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Please feel free to speculate all you like on my non-existent marshalling ability whenever I do anything at all wrong I'd just like to inform you that the wife has said that I've shoved dark socks into a white wash a few minutes ago... so off you go with some speculation !

Davyboy, we have a policy in the marshals forum of not discussing specific incidents for a number of reasons. Firstly because marshals are often privvy to detail that various reasons shouldn't be banded around on a public forum and secondly, as in this situation, marshals give their time for free to allow motorsport to happen, we do our best and are often in high profile situations. Sometimes, things go wrong and when that happens our policy is that we don't sit and point our fingers at people and discuss how they got it wrong and how we could do better. It works for all of us, as I said above, we never know when it might be us flat on our arse in the middle of the track on live TV or similar.

It's a bit different to other areas of Tenths but this is our policy and we'd be grateful if you would respect it.

[davyboy]

I understand that marshals may wish to self-censor for the reasons you explained... but are you saying that all opinion relating to specific incidents must be suppressed in this forum ?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I understand that marshals may wish to self-censor for the reasons you explained... but are you saying that all opinion relating to specific incidents must be suppressed in this forum ?

I'm saying that's our rules in here, if you want to come and join us please play nicely and by our rules

If you want to start another discussion elsewhere on Tenths then feel free.

[IanBurt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE_ZPycmaBs

This has just appeared on Youtube.

[bdwoody]

i am glad the crew are ok but that looks like a little over enthusiastic driving into paddock hill bend. it is a bit of a funky corner at the best of times (i was pounding round on the same day after the trucks in the DMN ) and it can bite ya !!!. come on peeps dont get too pc with this accident ,it was just that, it happens some times .

[Lrawlings]

Couldn't agree more. Learn from it, an let's be thankful all were ok. Trucks, legends an all other incidents over the wkend.

[Scott.T]

I agree with what was said above about this being one of those unfortunate accidents.
I was also stood on Paddock Hill bend and the truck went passed us just before he lost control.
I think that maybe the front trye also hit the Red/White rumble strip during the spin on the inside which was the final thing that caused the flip.
The black tyre marks left afterwards would indicate this.

I don't think anyone was aware of the diesel spill until after this had happened.

The weather had a very light drizzle in the air which turned the surface a slightly darker colour (in Top Gear terms 'mildly moist'), so the Diesel spill would of been slightly hidden.

It was only after this that the Marshalls laid down the concrete dust, which ended up going pretty much all the way round the circuit. One of the other trucks took a knock at the start, dislodged an engine mounting and pulled a fuel hose off in the process.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I really can't hold my tongue any longer, so here goes.....

If you werent there and DIRECTLY involved in this incident, please stop making assumptions about what did or did not happen!

I was there, I KNOW what happened. I will not post anything more about this incident in a public forum as this is not the place for unfounded speculation

neither can I - the best way to scotch speculation is to publish the truth; I'm unclear in what way you are helping by being coy.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I understand that marshals may wish to self-censor for the reasons you explained... but are you saying that all opinion relating to specific incidents must be suppressed in this forum ?

And not just on here. It's repeated ad-nauseum at training days. Anything you have that's pertinent should be told to the clerk of course, and anything you're speculating about means you don't know the specifics and should keep such speculation reasoned and non-judgemental.

Originally Posted by bdwoody

i am glad the crew are ok but that looks like a little over enthusiastic driving into paddock hill bend.

Absolutely no evidence of that from that video which catches the very end of the spin. Diesel+damp+that hill will make a sensible speed at all other times a little too much under the wrong circumstances. Reports from people at the scene are stating that the spill wasn't easily visible.

What the video clearly shows is that the high centre of gravity (and presumably fluids slopping around inside it) transformed a simple spin into a nasty roll-over and does raise a question about the design of the vehicle.

[Mark Mitchell]

It's a shame that the public thought it was so amusing

[Woolley]

A fact of life, Mark - other people's misfortune is funny, as long as no-one gets hurt. I've laughed at people falling over in the gravel trap in the past, and others have returned the favour when I've done the same!

[bdwoody]

wooley i said a little enthusiastic ,i didn't imply driving like a mad man . the driver got caught out simple as that ! we pay to race and some times crash ,the fire truck was not doing 10 mph was he so shouldn't have spun ! he was going to aid the other marshals doing there usual great job and just pushed it too far simple as that .

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by bdwoody

we pay to race and some times crash ,the fire truck was not doing 10 mph was he so shouldn't have spun ! he was going to aid the other marshals doing there usual great job and just pushed it too far simple as that .

Anyway if they were driving miss daisy someone else would be giving out.

Hope they don't get too much flack, these type of incidents are always going to happen. Learn and move on.

I had to deal with an incident on a rally stage I was running, years ago, course car took to a hedge 200m from the start! Apart from dented pride and a flintstones car wash effect, no harm done.

[terence]

The Marshal was indeed doing his job,trying to get to an incident a.s.a.p,as required.I think that, as part of one huge team,some slack should be given here, everyone should just be thankful that the Fire Crew are OK and able to carry on giving their invaluable service's!!!!!!!
As for the Great British Public's reaction to those youtube clip's,just about sum's up the UK today!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Woolley

And not just on here. It's repeated ad-nauseum at training days. Anything you have that's pertinent should be told to the clerk of course, and anything you're speculating about means you don't know the specifics and should keep such speculation reasoned and non-judgemental.

That may be the case for marshals, race officials and competition licence holders but not for paying members of the public. They are completely free to comment and speculate all the like on what they did or didn't see.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I'm saying that's our rules in here, if you want to come and join us please play nicely and by our rules

If you want to start another discussion elsewhere on Tenths then feel free.

I'm not quite sure how I should take what you've said here ?

Reading through this thread, it appears that perfectly sensible posts [including some made by mods] are flagrantly violating your rules. Perversely, being one of the few people that hasn't commented on this specific incident at all, I'm actually inadvertently complying with these rules !

I guess it's going to be a busy morning with the delete key. Good luck.

[VIVA GT]

I'll just add my thoughts here and say that this thread seems no different to 95% of the threads on ten-tenths. Something has happened during a Motor Race meeting, and this is being commented on by a number of people, some who were there, some who were not (and some of the 'were nots' are 'helped' by seing photographs and video of the incident).
As has been said by another poster, someone else's problem is always the easiest one to deal with, but surely, all of us on here are Motor Sport enthusiasts and therefore due to our 'passion', would like to make sure that problems like this do not happen again, which is why there have been criticisms, and (helpful?) suggestions?
The main thing is that (luckily) the crew weren't badly hurt (but if anyone wasn't wearing a seat belt they are double-lucky, and in my opinion stupid!), but lessons should be learned to ensure that this type of incident doesn't happen again (and could potentially have a far more serious outcome).
Finally I do think it is pretty unfair to say that 'as marshals were involved we shouldn't comment, 'they are our rules, please stick to them'. Yet everyone is free to criticise any drivers all the way from club racing up to Formula One!
(Although totally off-topic here I'll also fan the flames a little because although I know that the marshalls do an excellent job, and in all weathers etc. etc. over the years I have become tired with the 'if we didn't marshall, you couldn't race' arguement. Being initially from a totally self-funded club racing background, if people like me hadn't invested all of my spare money and spare time to build and prepare a racing car and the pay to enter it into races, marshals would have had no racing to marshal! )

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Finally I do think it is pretty unfair to say that 'as marshals were involved we shouldn't comment, 'they are our rules, please stick to them'. Yet everyone is free to criticise any drivers all the way from club racing up to Formula One!

I think you will find that in this parish of 10/10ths, most people are very good at sticking to the guidelines of the forum, be it for Marshal or Driver incidents. You will see that people will mention the incident, then it will usually go quiet until some form of official report, either Race Control or MSA, is available, then people will discuss the contents of that report.

I think the criticisms you see in other parts of the site are mainly from keen fans and followers, and I would be expecting the same kind of discussions about performances on Football, Horse Racing, Pigeon Racing and even Conkers Forums. But even in all of those, you don't see the officials chipping in to the forums discussions things that they may (or may not) have seen at an incident.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

(Although totally off-topic here I'll also fan the flames a little because although I know that the marshalls do an excellent job, and in all weathers etc. etc. over the years I have become tired with the 'if we didn't marshall, you couldn't race' arguement. Being initially from a totally self-funded club racing background, if people like me hadn't invested all of my spare money and spare time to build and prepare a racing car and the pay to enter it into races, marshals would have had no racing to marshal! )

Ah, that old chestnut... well, lets roast it for a while on this fire of yours. The 'without X you couldn't do Y' (where X or Y could be marshal,race,walk, earn a salary, pay the mortgage) arguments are always going to be fun - in fact I think they are the 10/10ths equivalent of the Chicken/Egg discussions

One could argue that if you didn't have the marshals in place, then the club that you spent so much of your money on preparing a car for might not be in place because the opportunities to race might not have been there. Likewise, no race club, no entries, no marshalling.

I think we all just need to agree that the marshal/racing/race driver relationship is one of those things that everyone benefits from, yet everyone loses out on if one of those three disappear.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I'm not quite sure how I should take what you've said here ?

Reading through this thread, it appears that perfectly sensible posts [including some made by mods] are flagrantly violating your rules. Perversely, being one of the few people that hasn't commented on this specific incident at all, I'm actually inadvertently complying with these rules !

I guess it's going to be a busy morning with the delete key. Good luck.

I'm surprised you find my post complicated, I'll use simpler words another time.

If you wish to challenge what I've said please do so via Magnet and EP, I have neither the time not the inclination to argue with you and this rule is not up for discussion as far as the Marshals forum is concerned.

[Piglet]

Right, to be clear, in the Marshals forum we do not take apart and analyse or criticise the conduct of individual marshals. There is nothing new about that rule and we ask those that visit our parish (I like that) to work to our rules within this section.

If you don't like it raise it with the site owners and moderators outside of this thread and forum.

I don't have unlimited time to moderate in the daytime and neither do the other moderators, if the thread continues in this way I will close it.