[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 of 23

[bjohnsonsmith]

Racer are reporting Alonso's podium has been reinstated.


https://racer.com/2023/03/19/alonso-...m-in-saudi-gp/

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It is being reported that there is no clear agreement that a jack touching a car constitutes working on the car.

I think that a jack touching the car does not constitute working on the car if no work is actually being done.
So that would put Brundle's comment to rest and if the place is reinstated than I think common sense and sporting justice has ruled on the day.

[greentrumpet]

So good to see the FIA responding quickly to correct an obvious injustice. This time.

[P38 in workshop]

For me,the image seared in my mind is that of Logan Sargent remaining in front of two McLarens that were deploying DRS.I expect it will have registered in Woking too.I'm also wondering if the baton has been passed at Mercedes now.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I think that a jack touching the car does not constitute working on the car if no work is actually being done.
So that would put Brundle's comment to rest and if the place is reinstated than I think common sense and sporting justice has ruled on the day.

This.

Penalties being chucked out for minimal/miniscule breaches of rules that can have no effect at all upon performance or outcome - if this continues the FIA will be a laughing stock.

On the race, well, RBR are clearly in a position to win every race at a canter this season. I suspect the championships could be decided earlier than we've ever seen before.

DRS - what a complete joke. Bin it. Nuff said.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I would argue the right driver stood on the podium, the FIA failed in its responsibility to adjudicate its ruling efficiently and communicate it to the team.

There was more than sufficient time to communicate the issue over the pit stop (Brundle said the jack was touching the car during the penalty. That was the offence. It should not have been touching the car. To not communicate that level of the ruling to the team during the race. and then do so after the podium ceremony just shows what a mess still exists within race officiating procedures in spite of the mess and subsequent reforms after 2021. Not excusable)

I agree with all that - I simply said "wrong driver" as a result of the penalty (which has now been reversed).

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It is being reported that there is no clear agreement that a jack touching a car constitutes working on the car.

That is what Autosport is saying too - penalty removed and Alonso keeps P3.

Clearly the FIA still has a lot of work to do - that is embarrassing for the sport - took way too long to make a decision, then make the decision public after the podium, then reverse the decision. Not well done at all.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It is being reported that there is no clear agreement that a jack touching a car constitutes working on the car.

First... I really would like to see Alonso keep the podium just because. It was a wonderful thing that he stood on the podium.

Second... I think it's insane to think you can touch the car (even with a tool) and it not be a problem. Where is the line here? Can you put a wheel gun on the nut, can you slide a driver into an adjustment for a wing? IMHO, while gut wrenching, it was clearly an error by the team that should have resulted in a penalty. But it should have been called out at that time. Regardless of how the organizers handled this, how can the team continue to make the same mistake?

I was watching the pitstop live and I thought... That rear jack guy has placed the jack on the rear of the car! But I just figured, what do I know, I am watching TV and maybe he didn't.

This video was released a bit ago which I think does show it (pretty much as I watched on TV).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8kknvQyFyA

What do I think is happening? I think F1 is buckling under the pressure. They are using any "perceived" lack of clarity to effectively let Alonso keep the podium because that is what everyone wants. I fully expect there to be a "clarification for future races" that NOTHING (including tools) can touch the car while it is serving a penalty. As Teretonga says, there was a LARGE aggravating factor that they bungled the entire thing as well by not calling out the infraction when it happened. So Alonso and the team is getting a free pass on this one.

Richard

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

First... I really would like to see Alonso keep the podium just because. It was a wonderful thing that he stood on the podium.

Second... I think it's insane to think you can touch the car (even with a tool) and it not be a problem. Where is the line here? Can you put a wheel gun on the nut, can you slide a driver into an adjustment for a wing? IMHO, while gut wrenching, it was clearly an error by the team that should have resulted in a penalty. But it should have been called out at that time. Regardless of how the organizers handled this, how can the team continue to make the same mistake?

I was watching the pitstop live and I thought... That rear jack guy has placed the jack on the rear of the car! But I just figured, what do I know, I am watching TV and maybe he didn't.

This video was released a bit ago which I think does show it (pretty much as I watched on TV).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8kknvQyFyA

What do I think is happening? I think F1 is buckling under the pressure. They are using any "perceived" lack of clarity to effectively let Alonso keep the podium because that is what everyone wants. I fully expect there to be a "clarification for future races" that NOTHING (including tools) can touch the car while it is serving a penalty. As Teretonga says, there was a LARGE aggravating factor that they bungled the entire thing as well by not calling out the infraction when it happened. So Alonso and the team is getting a free pass on this one.

Richard

Richard, the reasons for the reversal are based on previous precedents set with similar penalties..... FIA Stewards initially handed out a post-race penalty after deeming the rear jack making contact.

Under their interpretation, that constituted ‘working on the car’.

The Team subsequently exercised its Right to Review and submitted footage of other instances where that had gone unpunished.

The penalty was overturned and the underlying issue will be discussed ahead of the Australian Grand Prix.

“The subsequent decision of the stewards to hear and grant the Right of Review by the Competitor was the result of new evidence regarding the definition of ‘working on the car’, for which there were conflicting precedents, and this has been exposed by this specific circumstance.

Having reviewed the new evidence, we concluded that there was no clear agreement, as was suggested to the Stewards previously, that could be relied upon to determine that parties had agreed that a jack touching a car would amount to working on the car, without more.

In the circumstances, we considered that our original decision to impose a penalty on Car 14 needed to be reversed and we did so accordingly.

The 'new evidence' precedents were confirmed by way of video evidence submitted by AM ...the Stewards were shown minutes of the latest SAC meeting and video evidence of 7 different instances where cars were touched by the jack while serving a similar penalty to the one imposed on Car 14 without being penalized.

The whole issue will be discussed at a meeting prior to the Australian GP. As for "The FIA buckling under pressure" they see it differently as in bold below.

“The subsequent decision of the stewards to hear and grant the Right of Review by the Competitor was the result of new evidence regarding the definition of ‘working on the car’, for which there were conflicting precedents, and this has been exposed by this specific circumstance.

“This topic will therefore be addressed at the next Sporting Advisory Committee taking place on Thursday, 23 March, and a clarification will be issued ahead of the 2023 FIA Formula 1 Australian Grand Prix.

“This open approach to the review and improvement of its processes is part of the FIA’s ongoing mission to regulate the sport in a fair and transparent way.”

The quotes are from various FIA statements today.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Lol, I thought the same. He seemed like he was being a real jerk.

Richard

I didn't catch him. What did he do?

DRS made passes stupidly easy. It should definitely be scrapped. The whole idea of some of the new rules was to allow cars to follow closely and now that they can, why have DRS?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I didn't catch him. What did he do?

I think it's reference to him blanking Checo, seen as being a sore loser.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think it's reference to him blanking Checo, seen as being a sore loser.

Thanks crm. I was going to ask the same question as I didn't see that either.
(A sore loser indeed).

[PhilipR]

From the people who do not know the definition of "all" and "any", why are we expecting them to know the difference between "touching" and "working on"?

It feels like FIA are learning semantics as they go! :P

oh well, good that FA kept the podium and quite messy how the organisers have treated this penalty

[crmalcolm]

More context as video, rather than a still image - https://twitter.com/ESPNF1/status/16...LeF2FBeJA&s=19

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think it's reference to him blanking Checo, seen as being a sore loser.

I think you’d struggle to find someone less popular in the paddock.

[Akrapovic]

I have another issue with how the FIA treated the Alonso situation.

Previously there was a maximum time after an offence was committed that the FIA could issue a penalty for the offence. If the stewards felt that AMR committed and offence in that pit stop, then it should have been dealt with in the 35 laps that came after the offence. To just ignore it until the end, and then decide it's a penalty, is not a fair system.

I'd argue the teams have the right to know about penalties and infractions as soon as possible, so they can deal with them in the race - either by taking the penalty, or, in Fernandos case, speeding up to make a 10 second gap. To not tell the team is unfair.

I'm glad they reversed it, but it's another mistake from stewards.

[Sodemo]

To be honest I thought when Charlie was running the show, whilst he did a lot for the sport, he was overly cautious and often wouldn't send cars out on track when many people (Martin Brundle) would be saying "this is raceable" (normally wet conditions). However since his sad passing, the running of the show behind the scenes seems to have really fallen apart.

[S griffin]

Charlie knew what he was doing and we should be thankful. Some decisions I didn't agree with, but yes the main problem was not getting racing going in wet conditions. I agreed with Martin a lot of times on that. I just wish they had a contingency plan for him before he sadly left us. Like making Masi more prepared for the role if he should ever need to take over

[CarfanLUFC]

It left me very very cold yesterday....F1 no longer feels like a motor sport series, it's just a Net flicks show....

DRS, non-sense overtakes, contrived drama, a team that cheated last season seemingly getting a 'punishment' that hasn't affected them in the slightest, stewarding chaos, rubbish track, sport washing and nothing that appeals to actual race fans.

The integrity of the sport has made way for a different demographic that just want to see silly things happen to satisfy their tiny attention span. Ridiculous

[Aysedasi]

Personally on the 'penalty', I think common sense prevailed. Is just touching the car with a hand or even a jack actually working on the car? I think most people would apply simple logic and say no. Is having a tyre man there ready with a tyre working on the car? No, it's preparation for working on the car. As has already been said, the only way that the FIA can resolve this is to issue a clarification that any touching of the car will be considered to be working on it. To do anything else or to leave it for interpretation will just leave it grey and open to inconsistent results.

There is also an issue about the original penalty. To have two cars/drivers penalised for similar placement 'offences' in the first two races of the season seems to indicate a problem with drivers actually being able to see the box lines clearly. That may need to be looked at too....

I don't see AMR and Alonso having got a 'free pass' at all. I see it as a logical and common sense outcome.

In far more urgent need of attention IMO is the issue of DRS which made the race pretty much a mockery of a GP.

[CarfanLUFC]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think it's reference to him blanking Checo, seen as being a sore loser.

Proper weird lot, not just the Verstappen's but the whole Red Bull 'family'

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

It left me very very cold yesterday....F1 no longer feels like a motor sport series, it's just a Net flicks show....

DRS, non-sense overtakes, contrived drama, a team that cheated last season seemingly getting a 'punishment' that hasn't affected them in the slightest, stewarding chaos, rubbish track, sport washing and nothing that appeals to actual race fans.

The integrity of the sport has made way for a different demographic that just want to see silly things happen to satisfy their tiny attention span. Ridiculous

I actually think the track is one of the better modern ones, its a genuine challenge and for me feels a bit like the old Osterriechring with its few fast banked turns. Yea, DRS needs to die a horrible horrible death.

[chillibowl]

Don’t want to debate DRS, but rather just say the even though the RBs is a front running car it also absolutely seems to excel when it’s behind and it’s DRS wing is open.

And while that sucks for everyone else, I don’t think it’s right to advocate a rule change just because one team got it so much more right than others.

Just like Merc need to figure it out, all the teams need to figure out how to close the gap to RB without us advocating for a massive shift in the design rules.

[PhilipR]

On the DRS there seems to be tracks where it actually helps (barcelona) and places where it makes it all too easy like Jeddah

I wonder if shortening the DRS distance or maybe not allowing DRS on the straight right before the main one might make overtaking here a bit more of a challenge

[Aysedasi]

Do we need THREE DRS zones though for goodness sake? Three?? It basically means that no-one really bothers to try to overtake anywhere else, with the exception of KMag..... You have drivers not bothering to make an attempt to pass because they know they can get the job done easily on the next straight. It's just garbage.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do we need THREE DRS zones though for goodness sake? Three?? It basically means that no-one really bothers to try to overtake anywhere else, with the exception of KMag..... You have drivers not bothering to make an attempt to pass because they know they can get the job done easily on the next straight. It's just garbage.

Last year the multiple zones were used to great effect by Max and Chuck…I suspect they were hoping for more of that.