Flag Rules

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by MosquitoByte

Based on PVDA's response earlier, I'm under the impression these rules have existed since at least mid-2007.

The info I was sent was in mid January 2007, I could post the info I was sent up on here but that's not for me to do, perhaps PM Matthew to see if he can share the rules which I believe are buried within the Standing Regulations somewhere (I got an extract sent over).

[rms]

What's all the carry on about guys ?

I have only competed at one AASA meeting. The flag rules were in the supp regs, they were gone over at the driver's briefing and I assume the flaggies had a similar briefing.

The use of the stationary and waved blue flags was applied consistently and with plenty of warning from all flag points, no yellows thankfully, but I had full confidence in the flaggies if yellows had been required. It was also nice to get an occasional 'thumbs up' for an attempted overtake.

Hats off to the flaggies !
They new the flag rules, the drivers new the flag rules.
Where is the problem ?

[MosquitoByte]

Originally Posted by rms

What's all the carry on about guys ?

I have only competed at one AASA meeting. The flag rules were in the supp regs, they were gone over at the driver's briefing and I assume the flaggies had a similar briefing.

The use of the stationary and waved blue flags was applied consistently and with plenty of warning from all flag points, no yellows thankfully, but I had full confidence in the flaggies if yellows had been required. It was also nice to get an occasional 'thumbs up' for an attempted overtake.

Hats off to the flaggies !
They new the flag rules, the drivers new the flag rules.
Where is the problem ?

As one of those flaggies, I thank you.


Firstly, is this the drivers briefing usually held on the Saturday at lunch time.....after already having one or two sessions? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The problem lies in where the information is available. I for one, rarely get to see sub-regs. The same for the majority of track side officials. With CAMS, the flag rules, and standard breaches thereof, form part of the NCR's, which can then be modified at the sub-reg level.

With AASA, The NCR's contain little, if any information.

You will have noted I hope, that to obtain an AASA competitors license, you will be questioned in regards to flag rules. if you haven't competed at an AASA event, how would you know the rules.

My point is, for CAMS, the various officials groups can point to a specific section of the Manual, which details what flags are used in what condition. Another section deals with infringements in regards to those rules. There is nothing (aside from event specific sub-regs) which these same groups can educate trainee with.

Being told "run your standard rules" doesn't really cut it anymore, particularly with the apparent divergence of yellow flag rules. Besides' with, we track-side officials don't own or create the rules, the governing bodies do.

End.

Mos.

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by MosquitoByte

As one of those flaggies, I thank you.


Firstly, is this the drivers briefing usually held on the Saturday at lunch time.....after already having one or two sessions? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

end.

Mos.

The briefing is held before any car in it's category hits the circuit, The only circuits in NSW that I know use lights are Mt. Panorama, lights are located coming into skyline and also coming into the esses leading into the dipper.

The only change to the yellow flag rule is we now don't use a stationary yellow flag, just the waved yellow at the point proceeding the incident. In saying that, the Clerk of Course can ask for the point prior to the point with the incident, to wave a yellow for extra warning (Stupid in my opinion)

In regards to charging drivers;

I have been in numerous stewards hearings due to a driver breaking a rule, I inform race control of the problem, write it into a report with a diagram, which then goes to race control where they talk to the driver and if need be, they call the official who wrote the report into a hearing where they tell the stewards what they saw in which the driver gets a chance to ask a question.

I must say there are some rude drivers who try and intimidate you.

My first flag meeting of the year is the A1GP, where the communication rules are different.

Hope this clears the main factors up for you.

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Stationary Blues are also permitted at the discretion of the marshal for lapping cars.

Here goes Victoria with their own rules again.

Cams abolished the stationary blue flag many years ago, The only time a stationary blue flag is used is at pit exit to warn drivers of on-coming cars.

Perhaps if you came to a meeting run in NSW you will learn the rules proper

[MosquitoByte]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

Perhaps if you came to a meeting run in NSW you will learn the rules proper

er......ok......if you say so......

End.

Mos.

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ronke

Ok I have found out more about the flag rules. Yellow flags are to be waved by instruction of the clerk of course as per FIA rules at all CAMS race meetings. Reply: We wave the flag under our own choice, the only flag they tell us to wave is the red flag. (and blue at the V8s)

I find strange moving to his method when there were allegation that the yellow flag wasn't displayed at Bathurst with the Mark Porter incident as the flag Marshals were waiting to get permission to display the flag. Reply: Flags were waved, also the previous point waved a flag instead of stationary (for extra notice) but as per normal drivers do NOT slow down for a yellow flag.

Every year we have lacking numbers, I did 4 meetings in consecutive weekends they were that short of people, but replacing us for lights is just a joke. If something fails how will they know of an incident ahead, also.

Flag points are 90% of the time somewhere you get time to react to a car coming towards you, heck i've had my flag point hit by Max Wilson at Oran Park coming off the bridge.

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by MosquitoByte

er......ok......if you say so......

End.

Mos.

NSW have the best marshalls in the country, Hense we win the award every year

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

Cams abolished the stationary blue flag many years ago, The only time a stationary blue flag is used is at pit exit to warn drivers of on-coming cars.

Amd ever since drivers have been complaining about it, haven't they? Just because a bunch of people - many whom have never raced a car in their lives - decide to change a rule does not mean it is for the better.

[breasly]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

Here goes Victoria with their own rules again.

Cams abolished the stationary blue flag many years ago, The only time a stationary blue flag is used is at pit exit to warn drivers of on-coming cars.

Perhaps if you came to a meeting run in NSW you will learn the rules proper

Stationary 'Blue' Flags is not a Victorian thing, it is part of the AASA flag rules.

AASA conducts race meetings in QLD. NSW. VIC and SA.

[Woolley]

Stationary blue is still very much in use here for non-FIA meetings, and in my experience it's more effective than the waved. It can be shown earlier to warn the driver being lapped that he needs to check his mirrors and think about where he's going to be. If done effectively, the stationary blue in advance can mean that the waved 'you are now being passed' flag is unnecessary.

[MosquitoByte]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

NSW have the best marshalls in the country, Hense we win the award every year

Ok Mr_Cool, you've got me curious, what award would that be?

[NewsStalker]

Issued by the ARDC for Best NSW Flag Marshal in the Country. Available to anyone (after payment of the abbual ARDC membership fee of course.

[Mr_Cool]

Best volunteer group.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Stationary blue is still very much in use here for non-FIA meetings, and in my experience it's more effective than the waved. It can be shown earlier to warn the driver being lapped that he needs to check his mirrors and think about where he's going to be. If done effectively, the stationary blue in advance can mean that the waved 'you are now being passed' flag is unnecessary.

Wise words indeed from the Woolen One

To expand, I would prefer that we called it a "formality" rather than uneccessary. By giving prior warning to the slow tail ender we are preparing them for that blindingly fast front runner about to swoop maybe next time around....(pause for effect) ...we are satisfying ourselves that he is well warned and has checked/is checking his mirrors and by waving the Blue at the appropriate time we are informing the fast fella that the slow guy has been warned and he can dive past confident in that knowledge.

Well thats the theory

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Stationary blue is still very much in use here for non-FIA meetings, and in my experience it's more effective than the waved. It can be shown earlier to warn the driver being lapped that he needs to check his mirrors and think about where he's going to be. If done effectively, the stationary blue in advance can mean that the waved 'you are now being passed' flag is unnecessary.

Wise words indeed from the Woolen One

To expand, I would prefer that we called it a "formality" rather than uneccessary. By giving prior warning to the slow tail ender we are preparing them for that blindingly fast front runner about to swoop maybe next time around....(pause for effect) ...we are also satisfying ourselves that he is well warned and has checked/is checking his mirrors and by waving the Blue at the appropriate time we are informing the fast fella that the slow guy has been warned and he can dive past confident in that knowledge.

Well thats the theory

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Wise words indeed from the Woolen One

To expand, I would prefer that we called it a "formality" rather than uneccessary.

I agree, no need to say it twice! You're quite correct though. Don't you just wish that flag rules were made by someone who actually knew how to use them?

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by breasly

Stationary 'Blue' Flags is not a Victorian thing, it is part of the AASA flag rules.

AASA conducts race meetings in QLD. NSW. VIC and SA.

You might need to read between the lines a bit here

The stated intent of AASA, was and still is (as I understand it) to provide cost effective motor sport events for competitors.

Having said that, a potential competitor might be lured to participate in some of this cost effective; dare I say it "Fun" motorsport....

Now; some of these competitors, may not have done much racing in the past few years, or (like the majority of club & state level racers) be of advancing years.


Some of these racers might be greatly assisted by a little advance warning of an approaching faster car.
(most race marshalls all know; when a driver puts on a helmet, they often lose all ability to look in a rear view mirror)



An open minded individual might even contemplate the concept that racing is made safer by this !




( As for my reference to advancing years, entries lists prove that very few state racers under the age 25 have sufficient disposable income to compete at the level of those 20 + years older )

[MosquitoByte]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

Best volunteer group.

Well, that's a start. Who presents this award?

End.

Mos.

[breasly]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

An open minded individual might even contemplate the concept that racing is made safer by this !

This is particularly relevant with the proposed removal of the pre-warning stationary yellow flag.

Should litigation ever arise from an incident, the organising body could never mount an argument that removal of the pre-warning stationary yellow flag 'made racing safer' or at a minimum held the 'status-quo'.

You would only need to be even a half baked barrister to make a case that the removal of this pre-warning flag made racing inherently more dangerous.

In the modern legal world a judge would more likely side with a litigant once given the knowledge of what a pre-warning stationary yellow flag would do for the drivers and safety levels and the likely impact of its removal from standard race meeting procedure.

[275 GTB-4]

"Some of these racers might be greatly assisted by a little advance warning of an approaching faster car.

(most race marshalls all know; when a driver puts on a helmet, they often lose all ability to look in a rear view mirror)"

maybe we need to ditch the Hans Device and start using the patented Linda Blair head turning device....what is it called??? The Exorcist???

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I agree, no need to say it twice! You're quite correct though. Don't you just wish that flag rules were made by someone who actually knew how to use them?

Humble apologies....bloody forum software trips people up

However, I often rabbitt on for the benefit of the newbies reading....when I started there was none of this whizz-bangery internet chat stuff You got told one thing one day and a different thing the next...I soon managed to recognise that ego is a bigger word than it looks Once you realise that, you can draw a line of best fit and Marshal the "correct" common sense way.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

NSW have the best marshalls in the country, Hense we win the award every year

Uhmm, Is this the way we are to go. Volunteers trying to prove who is the best.

We are all volunteers. We do to assist the organisation , whatever that maybe, School P&C, Junior Footy-All Codes, Umpiring, CWA, State Emergency Services, etc.

THe day Australian Volunteers start getting awards for the best, it starts to loose the reason why we are there. It does not matter what state you volunteer in, it is the same reason for being there. As with all organised volunteers, it is better to pass on practices and methods to help other volunteer organisations.

P.S I f you want your name on a brass plaque, well there are other organisations that should satisfy those needs.

P.S.S. For past seven years, We have always adopted a pricinpal for when marshalls are on track. This year, a southern marshall, with years of experience, commented, that what we did was briliant, and he would impliment the same practice down south. WE don't want a "best marshall award". we are happy that a fellow marshall has picked up something that will asist our fellow marshalls.

[MosquitoByte]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Uhmm, Is this the way we are to go. Volunteers trying to prove who is the best.

We are all volunteers. We do to assist the organisation , whatever that maybe, School P&C, Junior Footy-All Codes, Umpiring, CWA, State Emergency Services, etc.

THe day Australian Volunteers start getting awards for the best, it starts to loose the reason why we are there. It does not matter what state you volunteer in, it is the same reason for being there. As with all organised volunteers, it is better to pass on practices and methods to help other volunteer organisations.

P.S I f you want your name on a brass plaque, well there are other organisations that should satisfy those needs.

P.S.S. For past seven years, We have always adopted a pricinpal for when marshalls are on track. This year, a southern marshall, with years of experience, commented, that what we did was briliant, and he would impliment the same practice down south. WE don't want a "best marshall award". we are happy that a fellow marshall has picked up something that will asist our fellow marshalls.

Here, here. My point exactly.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Uhmm, Is this the way we are to go. Volunteers trying to prove who is the best.

We are all volunteers. We do to assist the organisation , whatever that maybe, School P&C, Junior Footy-All Codes, Umpiring, CWA, State Emergency Services, etc.

THe day Australian Volunteers start getting awards for the best, it starts to loose the reason why we are there. It does not matter what state you volunteer in, it is the same reason for being there. As with all organised volunteers, it is better to pass on practices and methods to help other volunteer organisations.

P.S I f you want your name on a brass plaque, well there are other organisations that should satisfy those needs.

P.S.S. For past seven years, We have always adopted a pricinpal for when marshalls are on track. This year, a southern marshall, with years of experience, commented, that what we did was briliant, and he would impliment the same practice down south. WE don't want a "best marshall award". we are happy that a fellow marshall has picked up something that will asist our fellow marshalls.

Lets not get too carried away here...the V8 mob issue a "Best Volunteer Team" badge every year.

BUT

Everyone knows it is largely for the Bathurst 1000 where Marshals come from all over Australia and other parts of the world