[WEC] Alpine Sportscar Discussion

[philipp]

Originally Posted by philipp

are there some news about ALPINE joining LMH or LMDh?

I thought that the reason for ACO allowing LMDh in the WEC already in 2022 was to encourage Alpine/Renault to join the class...

Just read this article
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...e-and-bmw.html

and that's the answer I wanted...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by canaglia

like R13, also arx-05 is an oreca 07 based car and it had different fuel tank size according to IMSA bop, at example at daytona and sebring this year it had a 79L fuel tank, while in previous seasons it had some liter less.
At the moment can't remember if the bop ever let them having a >79L fuel tank,
can only guess arx-05 has not less than a 80L fuel tank that can be reduced using atl volume displacement balls.
According to this, R13 could be equipped with a 80L fuel tank, just in theory at least.

Thanks. It gives us some theoretical limits.

[Adam43]

I’ve been looking at the bulletins can can’t find the allowed size or the actual size of tank for the Alpine.

However Alpine says they would like BoP changed:
https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/a...utm_content=uk

Originally Posted by Philippe Sinault to Autosport

Something has to be done and I hope something can change, I will try to convince the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, but they already know the problem.

Anyone know the allowed size and what size tank they have managed to fit in?

[Adam43]

OK. I’m being thick.

So, of course, it is a maximum energy thing. Energy used per stint. Alpine can’t get to there 920MJ usage with 75l they potentially have.
I’m going to guess that they need 80-85l?

[broadrun96]

I think that's what they had estimated on the TV coverage, it sounded like it was a fairly small amount but nothing exact. It sucks but honestly the more I think about it the more I think "Well you bought a used car for the old rules, s__ happens. Build a better mousetrap."

[Pandamasque]

Problem: Alpine's homologated fuel tank doesn't allow making the most of the Mj per stint allowance.
Solution: decrease the allowance! Simple!

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...or-alpine.html

[Aysedasi]

Surprising, bearing in mind it's a French car..... well, a French team.....

[broadrun96]

Yeah but Toyota probably brings ore everything to the race than an Alpine. Now Peugeot on other hand....

[Adam43]

Eh? But why?! It was effectively something like that anyway.

I thought I was going to read that they had brought the Toyota and Glickenhaus down to what the Alpine can actually do. However no. Is it just so that it is more obvious that it is the case? Or is someone else going to turn up with an old LMP and they want it to be the same (what a fantasy!)?

[canaglia]

I think WEC will finally and definitely "evolve" in WWE when at same engine and fuel tank size, a bopped down to 600hp R13 will manage to have shorter stints than when it used to run at >700hp...

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Eh? But why?! It was effectively something like that anyway.

I thought I was going to read that they had brought the Toyota and Glickenhaus down to what the Alpine can actually do. However no. Is it just so that it is more obvious that it is the case? Or is someone else going to turn up with an old LMP and they want it to be the same (what a fantasy!)?

They believe in closing the loop and making sure they have "accounted" for the actual tank by changing the regs. You know, very efficiently bureaucrat, can't not close the loop cause they might magically make a bigger fuel tank?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Or is someone else going to turn up with an old LMP and they want it to be the same (what a fantasy!)?

Yeah. Aston is about to wheel out the AMR-One through the back door. Hence all the precautions!

Seriously though, I'm under impression we're seeing half the story here (so far). One logical explanation could be: ACO/FIA calculated that under Monza BoP at Le Mans the R13 is expected to have a pace advantage. So instead of adding weight or cutting power, ACO/FIA chose to cut the Mj allowance, since it's the penalty they'll suffer anyway. So that should put Alpine truly on the same race pace as others. And I'm sure this is preliminary, pending the data gathered at the test.

[Adam43]

It does seem like this makes no difference. This is a reduction of 8% in energy allocation, but the Alpine stint length was more than 8% shorter than the Toyota and Glickenhaus in all the races (approx 12% in Spa, 16% in Portimao and 10% in Monza). So no impact to the number of laps they can do in Le Mans. I've assumed that if they could have used their previous full allocation then they would do a similar stint length.

So still looking like 1 lap less a stint at Le Mans. ???

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Seriously though, I'm under impression we're seeing half the story here (so far). One logical explanation could be: ACO/FIA calculated that under Monza BoP at Le Mans the R13 is expected to have a pace advantage. So instead of adding weight or cutting power, ACO/FIA chose to cut the Mj allowance, since it's the penalty they'll suffer anyway. So that should put Alpine truly on the same race pace as others. And I'm sure this is preliminary, pending the data gathered at the test.

I get this, but why even bother if it makes no difference.

Perhaps just something to do!

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Yeah. Aston is about to wheel out the AMR-One through the back door. Hence all the precautions!

[Pandamasque]

I just imagined a scenario where Alpine is running faster laptimes at Le Mans and competitors start asking questions why it still has the same BoP. And ACO could say, "nope, look, we cut their Mj allowance". So now their stints are shorter not just in reality, but on paper too.

[Adam43]

I like the concept of "shorter not just in reality, but on paper too".

[canaglia]

recall back in 2018 that smp and rebellion got by default a -1 lap a stint compared to toyota because of bop, so nothing really surprising if alpine will run 1 or 2 laps less a stint compared to toyota and 007.
The real big joke will be if the same car at 600hp will have shorter stints than 2019-2020 R13, basically same car, aero set-up, engine and fuel tank size but >700hp powerful

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by canaglia

recall back in 2018 that smp and rebellion got by default a -1 lap a stint compared to toyota because of bop, so nothing really surprising if alpine will run 1 or 2 laps less a stint compared to toyota and 007.
The real big joke will be if the same car at 600hp will have shorter stints than 2019-2020 R13, basically same car, aero set-up, engine and fuel tank size but >700hp powerful

It is running 100kg heavier than last year though which has a fuel consumption penalty under acceleration.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

It is running 100kg heavier than last year though which has a fuel consumption penalty under acceleration.

that's true but consider also that this year according to onboard telemetry, gibson engine revs up to 8500rpm, quite lower to >9000rpm when was pushing >700hp and most of all alpine has crazy long gears...
something like 3rd kicked in at about 200km/h and 6th only reaching 300km/h

[S griffin]

It would have been tough for them. Considering their limited resources they have done alright without being spectacular. So fair play to them

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It would have been tough for them. Considering their limited resources they have done alright without being spectacular. So fair play to them

I think that alpine and united autosport (also jota cars maybe?) can fight for the overall win, they just need to do a steady and reliable race.
Not mentioning possible reliability issues for toyotas and 007s, soon or later all of them will need to change their brakes, even worse if temps will be really hot all the time.

[greenmachinets040]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I think that alpine and united autosport (also jota cars maybe?) can fight for the overall win, they just need to do a steady and reliable race.
Not mentioning possible reliability issues for toyotas and 007s, soon or later all of them will need to change their brakes, even worse if temps will be really hot all the time.

Why do you assume Toyota will have to change brakes? I can t remember Toyota changing the brakes at LM24 once since 2012..

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by greenmachinets040

Why do you assume Toyota will have to change brakes? I can t remember Toyota changing the brakes at LM24 once since 2012..

guess you didn't watch monza race...

[greenmachinets040]

Originally Posted by canaglia

guess you didn't watch monza race...

I was saying at LM24..

[Adam43]

Crikey! Such edge to the reply!

Glickenhaus had brake wear issues at Monza. Toyota’s issue wasn’t wear, but a failure. They did change the brakes, most of the brake system! So a slightly different situation.

If Toyota manage to fix that problem then will they need to change pads and/or discs? Don’t know.

Glickenhaus seem like they will have to if they had to in a six our race, but they have suggested they’ve solved the wear issue IIRC.

The cars are heavier so are a little more likely to need it, but we don’t know for certain. Roll on Le Mans…

[Pandamasque]

Do we know which part of it actually failed on a GR010?