Heel & toeing and left foot braking in Formula Ford.

[Bob Pearson]

I still feel there is a breakdown in logic from the heel and toe team.
I can believe that there is a theoretical advantage in reduced transmission wear and less rear tyre drama if the driver exactly synchronises the revs between the dog rings and the gears on each change down, i.e, perfect heel and toe. But how is that possible. The amount of revs required varies from gear to gear depending on the choice of ratios,the point in the rev range the change takes place and any partial lock up of one or both rear wheels during the change down. I can't believe that you can watch the rev counter and do all the necessary calculations to ensure exact synchronisation.
Having said all that I am just a bit jealous because it certainly sounds good and I have probably been around too long to learn now.

[Morcilman]

it takes so litle time to find the amount of revs required, its not that difficult. You still have to take the cluch out and the speed that you do that will compensate if you have put to much revs. In a couple of laps with new ratios you will find the right amount of gas required. Some times you put deliberately too much or too less if you need it as well. Is a very important part of car control

[Morcilman]

and yo are right, it sounds great!!! Bob is never to late, came on! go out there and heel and toe, you will feel great and you will control the car better.

[StephenRae]

I have run drivers who have no comprehension of 'heel and toeing',one who drives a road car like a snail, one who could not grasp the principal of bump starting, all hold lap records in FF1600, and win races.
I have come to the conclusion that all mechanical sympathy does is save on repair bills.

[Red Dog]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
I can't believe that you can watch the rev counter and do all the necessary calculations to ensure exact synchronisation.

You don't watch the rev counter at all, you just get used to the right amount of blip on the throttle and listen to the engine note. Main problem with a lot of road cars is the pedal positions i.e. brake and throttle are too far apart when you're braking hard or you can't press the brake pedal hard enough to rock your foot on to the throttle smoothly as the brakes are a bit over-servoed.

Never too late to learn Bob! Have you seen what's under those helmets at the clubbie meetings - grey and wrinkly is the norm!!

[Bob Pearson]

You don't need to tell me what is under the helmets Red Dog, I'm 57 tomorrow and expect to run another season in 2004 in BARC Renault.

[Red Dog]

So you've served your apprenticeship? Now you're ready to win in style. Overnight succes is never appreciated anyway.

[Bob Pearson]

Your right, it certainly wasn't overnight success.
You can imagine my reaction when a spectator drops into the paddock and starts a chat and tells me that he would love to be doing this, but he's too old now.

[Pink Panther]

H&T essential for smooth fast driving. I too struggle with left foot braking thing (partly due to Steering column location! I go clutch less up the box and use the clutch down the box. I have seen real performance improvements without the clutch it is without dought the fastest and best way. I have not seen any degradation in gearbox component wear either.

I believe that for any young driver new to the sport H & T along with an education as to why, "mechanical Sympathy for one" is important. It is the fundamental grounding that will stand him / her in good stead for the future.

[av8rirl]

Are people shifting up clutchless in Kents as well as Zetecs?

[Barny]

Sorry to go of thread slightly but how is the Pnk Panther now Andy?

[Pink Panther]

Still stripping down. It lookes better than I at first thought, but having said that once things are cleaned up it always looks better.

Hope to be back by May.
Regards
Andy

[Jensen]

Heel and Toe is very old school, alot depends on the car and gearbox, the principal behind it is to aid car control and weight distribution especially at mid corner sections of fast corners. Hewland will tell you that using the clutch on most of it's dog ring boxes does more harm than not using it. Reason : when you press the clutch you unload the imput shaft which is then snapped back under load when release happens, the more worn the dog rings and ratios are the more wear increases, this however is not the case with sequential as we run now in our Renaults, Clutch once to get off the line and then up changes and drop downs are all clutch free, the limiter is set 250rpm above shift point, so flat changing is the norm. The perfect set would be to gear your car so that you avoid untimely and badly positioned gear changes to avoid the need to match Revs with gears on a mid corner change, not an easy job as you may find what is good for one corner is bad for another but a comprimise can normally be made. As for left foot braking, yes very good skill to master, more so on clutch free sequential cars, this technique is great car balancer as you can remain on full or part throttle and balance the car in with th brakes and at exit you are already on the power when you fade out the brake pressure. My tip would be for older cars work on your style and gearing to avoid the need to heel and toe rev match as when you jump in a sequential it will be useless anyhow, work hard on left foot braking, you will probably brake to hard to start with but it soon comes, this will make you faster.

[kartingdad]

The other benefit of left foot braking is that you don't lose the time taken for your foot to come off the brake and plant it back on the gas. Also the engine is kept working at a consistent rate all the time, so you also don't lose time with throttle response, particularly with a turbo car.

[Bob Pearson]

Jensen,
Is there enough room to left foot brake in the current generation of Formula Renault. Certainly in the previous generation of Tatuus's the driver would need exceptionally small feet to get the left foot past the steering column. Although I agree with the principle of flat shifts, I am not sure that I agree with your theory about unloadng the drivetrain when clutching. It must also occur in the split second as the dog rings pass between gears even with a flat shift.

[Morcilman]

with some modifications you can left food brake, you can make a pedal that can be operated from both sides, or you can brake with the heel, you have to press harder, but that will allow you more room for precision. I have seing both thing successfully done

[gfm]

I am reading all your comments with interest.
There is a further consideration on toeing and heeling and the use of a crash/race gearboxes and that is the use of double de clutching on the down shifts (which I can't stop myself doing since learning to race the first FFords).
This is, Bob Pearson, the moment the gearlever passes into and out of the 'neutral' part of the lever gate, if your clutch foot releases the clutch and that coincides with a blip of the accelerator, then the appropriate shaft in the box is spun up to a higher speed (approx the revs of the new lower gear being selected), then the next ratio is selected with the clutch depressed thereby unloading the cogs in any case, without any real stress on the dog teeth. The engine will also be at high revs and a smoother down shifttakes place, particularly relavent in the wet for example.
It's must easier to practice and describe this while driving an old London bus than it is a late FF, but the sequence is the same.

Sorry, but there is still NO DOUBT in my mind that left foot braking techniques are still IMHO a blind alley for the majority of circumstances on the circuit. Cars (not Karts) have too much weight to transfer and too great a suspension movement in the main to make this technique necessary.
Be clear about this, if you are not a regular race winner, left foot braking will not change things one iota.

[kartingdad]

I think you will find that in a s/seater left footbraking is best used to steady the car in high speed corners where a downshift isn't required anyway. The gearchange/downshift malarky isn't involved, it's just a methos=d of slowing/stabilising the car without lifting off the gas.

As with most things, maybe don't knock it until you have tried it.

[Bob Pearson]

Crikey, gfm, thats a right performance. I knew that drivers of old lorries etc had to change down that way in the 50's, but I never for a moment thought anyone did that in current race cars. Evidence I have seen with my own eyes show winners from both the heeling and toeing and non heeling and toeing camps, in fact I have seen non heeling and toeing racers out brake a heeling and toeing driver in battles at the front of the field. The only thing I know for sure is that heeling and toers make Renault clutch plates last much longer than non Heeling and toers.

[woodyracing]

I've been reading this thread with interest..
Do you guys recommend heel and toeing in a single seater with a syncro gearbox (like my FVee) ?

[gfm]

Bob - it is a right performance, and I'm bound to admit , if someone's threatening to outbrake you, your H & T plus D D C needs to be bloody hasty!
Woody - yes is the answer, if only from the aspect of NOT locking up the unloaded rear wheels on abrupt declutching of the engine at low rpm. IMHO.
As this thread has developed, there's definately a few obvious differences appearing which make sense. Firstly, all this namby pamby double declutching and such won't help the sprint single seater brigade in their ten lappers, whereas if you want to be at the end of a 24 Hour race, you'll learn to baby your transmission at the same time as being quick. Certainly, your team mates will have something to say if you don't!

[gfm]

Sorry, the above posts of mine assumes that most Formula Forders are on their way to bigger things in racing. So good habits now are worth practising.

[Muz]

Evening All!

I race in a national single seater catergory (slicks & wings) with a top team.

We are taught that heal & toe is a must and this is made a great deal easier as we left foot brake (sequential gearbox on these cars). During testing it is something that we spend a lot of time perfecting. The general principal that we are taught is that time is made on the brakes with a downforce car. As we brake as late as possible, right into the apex. The car is on the limit into the Apex (we are taught to feel the car roll all the way until there is no movement left on the rear rollbar and hence the next stage is for the rear tyres to slide) and therefore if we did not H&T the small amount of lock caused going down the gears would cause the rear tyres to lose adhesion. In the dry we are talking minute amounts, in the wet it can make more difference, however it all contributes.

Left foot braking - the principal we are taught here is that a) It avoids flucuations in brake pedal pressure when H&T.

B) When following a car (with powerful brakes and downforce - hence even greater stopping power) very closely, it can be easy to hesitate when approaching a braking zone, in fear of hitting the car in front when it brakes,

C) It allows you to hold off the brakes for that extra split second in order to brake later into a corner (as opposed to transfering your right foot over) seems like a small advantage but when travelling at 140 / 150 Mph those extra few 10ths of a second equate to several meters.

D) It allows smoother application of the brake pedal.

When I drove in Fords I didnt H&T and didnt do to badly. I was always taught to clutchless flatshift up the box and then I used a bit of clutch going down the box with the Hewland 4spd H box.

I guess its really down to preference, but I am converted to the benefits of H&T and left foot braking in a downforce car with sequential box, ive spent sometime looking at the results on my data and it definetly helps me!

Hope this helps

Muz

[kartingdad]

I think the results of this thread indicate that H&T may not gain you time each downshift, but you are able, providing you can do it properly, to ensure that you don't lose any time thru a poor downchange NOT H&T.

It just makes your driving more reliable and consistant and your box will last longer.

I suppose it's like using your direction indicators on the road - you don't HAVE to use them, but it's better, safer and less stressful if you do!