[BTCC] 2014 BTCC Croft (Rds 13-15)

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What did menu say about the incident?

from Menu

I have no idea what went through his mind

[Craner Curves]

Well done toca. Compromised the reliability of the rwd cars. Take a bow.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Well done toca. Compromised the reliability of the rwd cars. Take a bow.

I did suggest that the BMWs would be burning their clutches out wiith the first gear changes.

[PandaKing]

TOCA- ensuring close racing by hamstringing the best cars!

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I did suggest that the BMWs would be burning their clutches out wiith the first gear changes.

which means WSR need to try get a quantity discount on clutches cos they will be changed a lot...

after race 3 stewards will have a lot of work to do regarding penalties

FACT Matt Neal will be rear gunner for Shedden for the rest of season.. he is over 100 points behind

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

after race 3 stewards will have a lot of work to do regarding penalties

FACT Matt Neal will be rear gunner for Shedden for the rest of season.. he is over 80 points behind

The stewards will not be busy. The worst that they can possibly give AJ is a 10 place grid penalty for Snett.

Weird how AJ loses a place for gently tapping Matt Neal into a slide which was easily recoverable in what was turn 1 bunching after the first race, yet Plato ends up gaining one after blatantly and almost deliberately disposing of Alain Menu in race 2. If that isn't the aforementioned Plato bias, I don't know what is. TOCA have also managed to burn out Turks clutch and forced a DNF just to keep Plato happy.

There's no point hiding the fact that they have historically had a Plato bias, and have just added to the evidence to suggest that this weekend. I'd rather a slightly illegal car racing against me than a maniac who can't help but take out other drivers every other weekend. TOCA clearly don't care about safety, as long as the technical regs are met. Maybe if BMR were factory backed, or if Plato's car wasn't (odd thought) then we would've seen justice, but no, TOCA have succumbed to the interests of the big players instead of the interests of parity, which seems to be something Plato craves. The list of unpunished incidents he's done is ridiculous. If I was a touring car racer, I'd change my name to Jason Plato just so I can get away with insulting the regulations until I get my way, or to create several unprovoked incidents.

But in hindsight, it's clear that TOCA's driving standards clamp-down would never work, as it would clash with their interests with Plato and the other occasional offenders in Shedden and Neal, and it's becoming more and more clear which one they prioritise.

So at the end of the day, I guess what I'd really like is for Alan Gow to come here right now and tell all the viewers at home what's really going on, because quite frankly, it's a joke.

Rant over, and I can't wait for people to attempt to defend TOCA

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

As for Matt Neal, he has just under 57% of Shedden's points total with half of the season remaining...

[BillWiskins]

I thought it seemed fairly clear that Mr Plato misjudged a 'cut-back' manoeuvre when he tagged Mr Menu, rather than it being the deliberate shove it is being made out to be. I wasn't impressed by his comments afterwards, though - I don't for a moment agree with all the 'evil overlord Plato' comments on here but he was certainly less than gracious. He made a mistake - a pretty small one, but with big consequences (for which the 10-place penalty is perfectly adequate, in my opinion) - and he should have held his hands up and said so. Perhaps I am inviting the wrath of the internet, but I felt Mr Collard's push-to-pass in Race 3 was as bad or worse, though with no spectacular crash or retirement as a result it was quickly forgotten.

Re: the clutches in RWD cars - I'm no mathematician, but I make that one clutch problem in one race for one RWD car. I also managed to count two wins out of three, and three podium finishes out of three, for the BMWs. Perhaps this is some strange use of the word 'hamstring' that I wasn't previously aware of...

Originally Posted by PandaKing

TOCA- ensuring close racing by hamstringing the best cars!

If the RWD cars start systematically retiring from races due to clutch problems, then fine. 1/15 doesn't cut it for me, though.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by BillWiskins

Perhaps I am inviting the wrath of the internet, but I felt Mr Collard's push-to-pass in Race 3 was as bad or worse, though with no spectacular crash or retirement as a result it was quickly forgotten.

Whilst Collard's incident was a clear push-to-pass, and Collard should be duly punished, is that a serious comment? Plato turned into the left-rear of Menu and didn't in any way attempt to even given Menu room through the corner - he just simply turned Menu around. Collard at least found some room and Goff could've given him more, but Collard didn't back out and that resulted in avoidable contact and Goff losing 2 places. Collard's excuse is a least one you can buy into. Plato's "it may have been me" is the most gracious I've ever seen him, and is complete rubbish anyway. Alain Menu's "God knows why he turned in" and "I don't know what went through his head" is a far more accurate description. The same can be said for spinning Neal at Snetterton 2011, ramming Shedden off at Donington 2012, disposing of Dave Newsham needlessly at Brands 2012, etc, etc, etc, and because TOCA aren't brave enough to punish this man, then every other weekend someone else's weekend will be ruined by him.

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by BillWiskins

I thought it seemed fairly clear that Mr Plato misjudged a 'cut-back' manoeuvre when he tagged Mr Menu, rather than it being the deliberate shove it is being made out to be. I wasn't impressed by his comments afterwards, though - I don't for a moment agree with all the 'evil overlord Plato' comments on here but he was certainly less than gracious. He made a mistake - a pretty small one, but with big consequences (for which the 10-place penalty is perfectly adequate, in my opinion) - and he should have held his hands up and said so. Perhaps I am inviting the wrath of the internet, but I felt Mr Collard's push-to-pass in Race 3 was as bad or worse, though with no spectacular crash or retirement as a result it was quickly forgotten.

Re: the in RWD cars - I'm no mathematician, but I make that one clutch problem in one race for one RWD car. I also managed to count two wins out of three, and three podium finishes out of three, for the BMWs. Perhaps this is some strange use of the word 'hamstring' that I wasn't previously aware of...



If the RWD cars start systematically retiring from races due to clutch problems, then fine. 1/15 doesn't cut it for me, though.

Thank You for saying everything I wanted to say but in a far more eloquent manner. We are spoiling a great season for ourselves.

Other than that, the only thing that annoyed me from today was everyone saying we have a seven week break! It's only five, let's not make it longer for ourselves eh!

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Well at least the stewards please some people. Don't worry Mr Gow; the big boys can take out who they like when they like from now on!

[BillWiskins]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

Thank You for saying everything I wanted to say but in a far more eloquent manner. We are spoiling a great season for ourselves.

It's true! It has been a very exciting first half of the season - living up to all the pre-season hype. I feel that things in here are getting somewhat hysterical at times, though.

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Whilst Collard's incident was a clear push-to-pass, and Collard should be duly punished, is that a serious comment?

I'm afraid so Disclaimer, though, I am not a racing driver. But it looked to me like Mr Plato, seeing that the pass was made, was just trying to tuck in as closely as possible behind Mr Menu in order to either stick with him, or to take advantage if Menu had gone in too deep as a result of the pass. A few inches more and there would have been no contact.
Having just looked at the Collard - Goff incident again, you're right - there was more of a gap than I remembered when I wrote my previous post. It still looks like Collard knew what he was doing - on a corner like that, it doesn't take much to unsettle a car and he had been stuck behind Goff for a while. In my opinion, it was avoidable contact.

[S griffin]

So the longer first gear would only affect the RWDs on the start? So why then did it lead to Colin's DNF in race 3? At least a weight penalty wouldn't do it.

The thing that grates is that TOCA brought in this rule change just as Colin had the momentum in the championship. Just like in 2003 when the Ferraris moaned about the 'wide' Michelins and the FIA brought in a rule change just as the Michelin teams had the momentum on Ferrari in the championship.

What makes the DNF even worse is that Flash and AJ managed to score good results and it means Colin has a smaller lead than he has. I hope he doesn't lose the title because of this.

The only justice was Colin's first two wins and Plato's bad weekend. I know the rule change might not have been influenced by his whinging, but the fact he did whinge and there has been a rule change doesn't do him any good. And I'd like to ask the officials, would any other driver have had the same punishment if they did what they did to Menu?

At least Steve Neal, a constant RWD moaner, said it was Colin that is making the difference.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by S griffin

And I'd like to ask the officials, would any other driver have had the same punishment if they did what they did to Menu?

Almost certainly, yes they would have. A 10-place grid drop is a pretty standard penalty; Jordan has been given the same for his move on Giovanardi during race 3.

[porsche962fan]

something else to mention

with his constant drivers from the back Alain Menu should win the Jack Sears Trophy...

in race 3 he started from the back and finished ahead of Plato and his team mate

[Greem]

From JP on Twitter:

@jasonplato: To put the record straight, I apologised to @AlainMenu_ and told the stewards that I misjudged the undercut. My mistake, hands up.

[MarkG]

Plato true to form, rock-ape take out of Menu race 2.
Menu outwitted Plato into the last corner entering this particular lap and thus got the momentum to enable the overtake which was done. Either Plato got all petulant, or he made on hell of a mis-judgement. With his experience, seems hard to believe it's the latter.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Greem

From JP on Twitter:

@jasonplato: To put the record straight, I apologised to @AlainMenu_ and told the stewards that I misjudged the undercut. My mistake, hands up.

Translation: "I've come home and absent-mindedly googled my own name to see what people are saying, it seems like my half-hearted non-apology didn't go down well at all. Time to at least play lip service to the idea of being sorry so at least some people might be deluded enough to still be a fan of my driving"

Or, you know, he meant it. All part of the game

[porsche962fan]

anyone surprised a bit the MG isn't as potent anymore ? looks like they lost their mojo after Donington , they are slower than some FWD cars, (Hondas, and now even BMR Passats or Wix Mercedes) nevermind the WSR Beamers...


what are the odds that Matt Neal will brake his finger for the 4th time in a row ??


and out of the 5 remaining tracks 3 should favor Colin Turkington
- Knockhill
- Rockingham
- Brands

not sure of Snetterton while Silverstone will be about boost

[Madd_Dogg88]

I find myself in an awkward place as a fan of the BTCC at the moment. On the one hand, I'm enjoying the size and diversity of the grids at the moment, and I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing my favourite driver at the front of the series. On the other hand, I'm really struggling with the sheer lack of professionalism and pure childishness that is all over the shop at the moment.

All I have heard from the 'top' drivers in this championship are purile and baseless moans to 'justify' their own lack of performance. If it's not the fact that a car, which is in its development prime and at the hands of a world class driver, is ahead of them, it's that fact that the new rules regarding track limits and contact are preventing them from racing. Am I expecting too much to want to see teams and drivers putting in their all to win a prestigious title using their skill, knowledge and race-craft? If a team's car is not at the top, I want to see them working their socks off to get it up there. I want to see drivers using their skill and finesse to race and overtake, not to simply throw their cars around on or off the track, knocking their opponents to high heaven to get where they want. I am sick of Plato, Shedden and Neal decrying anyone who dares to demonstrate more ability. I am sick of them forcing people to bend to their will or be forceably moved out of the way (on and off track). I do not see them as media darlings, top draws or the pinnacle of the series, I see them as a huge negative asset to the BTCC and I, for one, would be glad to see the back of them. There's a new breed of drivers that I consider much more worthy of the high status that these 'old boys' hold.

I do believe that Gow has put together a stellar ruleset for NGTC, and it's one that seems to be working extremely well. I commend the MSA and the stewards on their clamp down on driving standards with regards to contact and track limits. I do not, however, believe that the decisions being made are fair, equal and correct. Jason Plato in race 2 and the top 3 from race 3 (to pick just a handful from the myriad examples this year) were all guilty of driving offences that deserved penalties, and they were duly handed out. But I do not see how a grid drop for the next race is a correct punishment for punting a car out of the lead of the race. If you cross the line in 1st after that, should that win not be taken away from you? If you spear someone off the track in a deliberate tag following a clean and legit pass, should your result not be thrown in the proverbial gravel too? Once again, I see a select number of drivers sitting on a pedestal and a management determined to manufacture every aspect of the championship. It undermines the championship, it undermines the competitors and it undermines me as a supporter.

While I remain a stoic supporter of the BTCC (I've invested too many years to turn my back! ), and while I continue to back drivers, teams and cars that I have followed for years, I feel that my respect for the championship is falling off a cliff. I despair for the state of the series, I count the days that a certain few take their leave and I hope that a turning point is on the horizon.

Rant done. And relax.

[Moneyseeker]

I'm not condoning anyone's actions, but regulation is a fine line. Make rules too draconian the drivers will back off and we will be complaining about processional races - enough people moaned about the lack of racing at Oulton Park...

To be honest, I think overall the driving standards are pretty good - remember that we are talking about such fine margins with cars on the limit of control and things that happen in a split second or small misjudgement.

The points system is working as seen by the number of leading drivers that have accumulated them.

All looks good to me, nothing to complain about.

[geordiecriag101]

Just thought I would join in with a few things I seen from being there yesterday.

The first being the the BMW's, not just Colin's, but Rob's and Nick's aswel looked like they were on rails all day, they looked like a dream to drive, all credit to WSR as they have those cars almost perfect.

Second, as everyone knows croft is a rwd circuit, but the honda's wernt too far behind the bwm's but the mg's looked a real handful, maybe JP would be better putting all his effort into sorting out the car problems than moaning about other people.

Third thing was the level of driving for the most part was prity good, from being at croft the last 3 years, I couldn't really tell that the change to circuit limit's rule had much of an effect as they still were still short cutting and running wide as normal.

One funny story, on the Sunday morning Rob Austin held an auction to sell off bits that were damaged from his fp2 crash, £486 was raised for St Teresa's Hospice. One of the parts sold was the front spliter, but after the hit rob took in race 2, they had to ask if the person could return it so they could use it in race3 as it was better than the one they had.

[Bramzel]

Rob Austin was involved in accidents in every session he drove wasn't he? Horrible weekend for him, and it seemed to me that he could have avoided most of them...

[steve_r]

I don't think Austin could have avoided the startline accident. And wan't the first race incident when everyone bunched up on lap 1? Apologies if my memeory is playing tricks.


On the Menu / Plato incident here is something I found

[q]
"There are only two things you can deduce, either he did it on purpose and wanted to take me out, or it was an accident and he needs to have his licence taken away.

"I'm going to go all the way on this - I'll take it to the MSA tribunal and beyond."
[/q]

A bit OTT by Menu I hear you say?

No, actually Menu said nothing of the sort. This is Plato's complaint after being on the receiving end of something similiar to what he dished out. His apology is somewhat less heartfelt than one of his previous complaints!

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

That must've been the Árón Smith accident from Knockhill 2012. Dave Bartrum had a huge rant at Plato on his Motorbase blog, which criticised basically his entire career, and made complete sense. Plato has a massive psychological problem with things like this. He dishes it out so often and people make a little bit of noise about it (unless it's Matt Neal) yet he cannot take one bit of it. Most drivers are the same, but Plato gives it out every other round, and never admits fully to have done anything wrong. Thank god he races tin tops...