Europe In, Denver Out?

[JohnSSC]

Not strange at all. Nururgring is a "destination" in that even non-racing fans have heard of it. The strange thing is how tracks and their usage has evolved in America...

Except for the circuit at Indy, I really do not see any FIA approved tracks in America suitable for F1 or even to let CC/IRL cars really stretch it out. It is a shame that most road courses here are so focused on the amatuer/lower level professional niche.

[Purist]

Then again, JohnSSC, I'm glad not every road course in the US is a parking lot, or a desert. Frankly, Indy's roval isn't that great. If F1 were to insist on such a course, they should try Daytona, Talladega or the Pocono North Road Course (which uses Turn 1 of the oval).

Road America and Watkins Glen are quite acceptable professional racing circuits, along with Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Portland and Road Atlanta (I'll admit that Sebring, VIR, Lime Rock, Mid-Ohio and others could use work on repaving, adding facilities and removing a certain ill-conceived infield culvert.).

For CART, I see 12 reasonable permanent road courses in North America (St. Jovite, Mosport Park, Portland, Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Miller Motorsports Park, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio, Road America and Mexico City), and three others that could host the series with fairly mild upgrades (Lime Rock Park, VIR and Heartland Park). Honestly, I don't find Fundidora Park much better than some of the street circuits CART uses.

Obviously, 12 races isn't a great calendar in modern motorsport, and without ovals, CART is a bit short. Without ovals (which non-NASCAR fans are NOT going to in sufficient numbers to justify at this time), either temporary or overseas venues are needed to bolster the schedule to a level that is expected of a major series here.

[indycool]

For some unexplainable reason, road courses inside ovals in the U.S. do not attract fans. It's been tried a lot of places. The latest is Indy for F1, which draws one of the biggest F1 crowds in the world but about a third of what it does for the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400. A lot of ovals have road courses inside 'em, but have given up on them -- Michigan, Charlotte, Phoenix -- because, apparently, they have such a firm oval constituency that it doesn't translate. The Rolex, even with its status, doesn't draw a superior crowd.

[luke]

The United States Grand Prix was at one point the highest attendance for Formula 1 and the lowest of the Brickyard 400 and Indy 500. But not anymore especially this year as they had dismal crowds. Who could blame them?

As for infield oval race circuits, IMHO tacky and crappy. Just flat twists and turns, nothing compared to the leading road courses that country has to offer.

[indycool]

I presume you're saying F1 had dismal crowds.

But I agree.....infield road courses, although most have the "plus" that fans can see the whole race track, are "tacky" and uninteresting compared to permanent road courses.

[D.R.T.]

Another case in point, all be it not in America would be Lausitz in Germany. Struggled with racing quality and numbers in the stands.

[luke]

The thing with Lausitz is, it hosts all its races on the infield and none hardly on the oval anymore.
The actual infield circuit at Lausitz is quite a high quality.

[indycool]

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...3010/1015/FREE

[indycool]

Denver officially off......

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/N...e.asp?ID=11243

[luke]

From the article with the link posted above:

The strong attendance numbers, the backing the event received from the corporate sector as well as the city and county government, and the support of the people of Denver have shown that a Champ Car event can flourish there," said Champ Car President Steve Johnson. "Champ Car has made a major investment in building this event over the last five years. We are committed to making every effort to returning to the Mile High City as soon as a viable replacement date can be found."

A shame as I enjoy watching the Denver race. The fans always turn out. Exciting races as long as I can remember, and a good festival atmosphere.

[indycool]

luke, if the fans had turned out and all that tremendous support was there that Johnson's quote says was there, it would be such a financial and creative success that the race would still BE there. Don't count on its return.

[D.R.T.]

Half empty again indycool. Tremendous support was there along with the fans, in the form of Centrix who did an awesome job of promoting the event. Without them the wheels have fallen off. Many articles were written about Denver and Centrix and the success of leveraging there sponsorship and getting there affiliates involved.

Things havent ended well with the current announcement however it is unreasonable yet not unusual that you would attempt to bag out the history of the event.

[indycool]

A bit more than half, D.R.T. The race promotion went from Centrix to CART/Centrix to CART to CC to CC/Centrix to Centrix and back to CC at the last minute last year and somewhere in that mix was Sutton Motorsports.

Regardless of announced attendance, they had only 22,000 seats and VERY few GA areas.

Bottom Line: Event lost a lot of money.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

A bit more than half, D.R.T. The race promotion went from Centrix to CART/Centrix to CART to CC to CC/Centrix to Centrix and back to CC at the last minute last year and somewhere in that mix was Sutton Motorsports.

Regardless of announced attendance, they had only 22,000 seats and VERY few GA areas.

Bottom Line: Event lost a lot of money.

Indycool, who pays you to say this?

There is a great atmosphere at the Champ Car Denver race. From all the fans I know that go there each year, be it fans or friends they enjoy the event very much. Many people who you don't give credit for enjoy the festival experience. As far as I know, the crowds have always been strong at Denver, they always turn out, I don't know the exact figures as its petty to go into things like this but I'm sure mountainstar will back up this event is not as crap as you say it is. The half empty approach as we all know the seating is not the full attendance. Funny how you don't mention that...

The bottom line is, I enjoyed the race personally for me as the last few years, us fans have been treated to eventful races.

[JohnSSC]

Indycool is not saying the event "is crap." No judgement is being made as to the quality of the race or the amount of enjoyment that the fans who did attend had.

Posters here have this habit of not noting that Centrix has not been the event sponsor each year. Nor has it been noted that the seating was limited to 22K. It does not have a "stable" history in that sense and the comments purporting to that have been, simply, incorrect.

All that is being said is that if the event were a strong money-maker it would still be on the schedule. That is and always will be the bottom line in sports promotions. Much as we all love to see a race at Road America, difficulties at the gate have caused this race to be cancelled and future races to be uncertain. For now, thankfully, it has a place on the schedule.

[drewdawg727]

Denver is also having issues with seting up the race because of time conflicts. The Pepsi Center and the University surrounding the track together could not find a suitable time to show the race.
And if i recall correctly, the Democratic National Convention is being held in Denver in '08...so therefore we won't see it back in another year.

[indycool]

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5139799

The Democratic National Convention conflicted in '08, and from this story, an '08 date could not be worked out. CC self-promoted it in '06 at the last minute with an infusion of cash or it was gone then. CC self-promoted it because a promoter could not be found (i.e., a guy who would risk the MONEY to do it).

As John said, I fully imagine there WERE those who enjoyed it. I DID mention that there were FEW GA areas. So there were a FEW more than 22,000 (which included suites, by the way) who attended.

Johnson whitewashing it with kind comments toward it in a news release -- if he meant 'em all that much, DATES would have been worked out for '07 or '08. IMO, this race is history. He didn't mention that the entire staff, last fall, left and the office was shut down and Jim Freudenberg, Jana Watt and Rena Shanaman, among others from Denver, went to work immediately on Vegas and Phoenix with CC and DDB Ventures....and Denver was still on the schedule.

[carsten66]

As a fan I feel sorry for the loss of the Denver race... particularly after five years and due to the fact that the race always was a lot of fun to watch...

The point is that it's hard to believe that none of the big companies like Coors, American Medical Response, Samsonite or Western Union with Denver area operations are feeling up to sponsor the Denver Grand Prix.

So let's hope we will see the race back in 2009...

A short summary when all the trouble started from The Denver Business Journal in August 06...
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/st...1/daily68.html

[racinthestreets]

CC Fans. Remember, one of the issues with "temporary" street circuits is that geographics and politics continusously change. Anyone remember the Molson Indy Vancouver? Before Molson pulled sponsorship this extremely propular well attended event was at first rerouted due to construction and a changing skyline then canceled due to more construction for an Olympic Village pertaining to the 2010 Winter Olympics. Will it ever return, I venture not with the same circuit. If Denver can be reconfigured and above all a a "sponsor" found - well anything is possible!

[indycool]

Definitions:

A sanctioning body sanctions and puts on the races for a fee and pays the purse. It may/may not have its own sponsors for a series.

A promoter pays the sanction fee, acquires sponsorship for the EVENT for a fee and sells seats and suites and signage and program advertising and the like in order to pay the sanction fee, operating costs and make a profit.

A sponsor pays a fee, either for a series or an event, for its particular marketing thrusts and interests.

Right now, all three are absent from Denver. It had no promoter in '06, so CC doubled up. It had no sponsor, so Bridgestone stepped in at the last minute in '06 for a quickie deal with CC.

Financially, CC doing all three things when the race is losing money would not be a responsible decision.

[mountainstar]

The event ended up in this position though no fault of champcar.

The basically last minute withdrawal of Centrix caused a wave of visible disturbance at last years event essentially dumping the whole organization and running of the event into champcars lap. It would be no different if one month before the indy 500 ic and the rest in the office at indy got turned out in the street. Imagine a big race to run and nobody to run it. Apparently all of the tickets and other event literature at the GP of denver last year had to be destroyed and brand new literature printed at the last minute without the centrix name on it. That's just for starters.

Had centrix continued, then the race probably would have continued in some form with no problem. However with champcar focused on Phoenix and Las Vegas it appears Denvers issues could not be sorted in time. It's very disappointing, one hopes it returns some day.

Let's also not forget folks it was the great Fred Nation last year who praised the Denver event as a marquee open wheel race in North America.

Also who says Denver was losing money? I like to see that opinion shown to be a fact.

[JohnSSC]

What we can see is what we don't see: a race in Denver. Things that make money have a tendency to stay on the radar.

Comparing the loss of Centrix to the pantomime "loss" of the office staff at the Speedway is like comparing apples and kiwi. The presence of definitions was skillfully evaded in subsequent posts here, let's revisit that, shall we? There is a difference between a "sponsor" and in the case of the Speedway the facility itself. While it was a clever sort of comment designed to insinuate where one or more persons on the forum may (or may not) work, the 500 would continue with or without Midge Stumpledinck to collect faxes. An already profitable race becomes more profitable with a sponsor (see again the 500). A race that is not profitable loses more $$ when there is no sponsor. Therefore an unprofitable or low-profit race, however enjoyable to watch, will no longer appear on a schedule when a sponsor backs out and a new one cannot be found to replace it.

[indycool]

mountainstar, I'd probably agree that it's not CC's fault. Indeed, when the bills needed to be paid or there would be no race last year, CC stepped up and ran it at the last minute.

But the promoter role in that event went from Dover to Centrix to CART to CC to CC/Centrix to Centrix to CC and somewhere in there was Sutton Motorsports. The financial "risk-taking" was passed around like a hot potato.

Despite attendance figures announced, there were only 22,000 seats at Denver, including suites, and very few GA areas to watch from -- the course is stuffed into a VERY small area. With the added cost of street-race construction, that just isn't enough to make the "nut" and pay an appropriate sanction fee.

And, as John said, if everybody was making out right, they'd still be doing it.

[Snrub]

mountainstar is correct in stating that we don't know for a fact that the Denver race lost money in '06, but as has been pointed out it was likely.

If a loss occured, the next question is how much of a loss? Let's say CC lost a couple hundred $ks on the race. That might be worth continuing from a long term perspective. After all it takes a lot of effort to create a successful event. Throwing something out after a number of years throws away all of that old effort. Granted one shouldn't chase good money after bad, so it should have been dropped if it didn't appear likely that the event would be profitable in the future.

It seems like a number of CC races have been cancled for combinations of reasons. eg. A race isn't highly profitable and other factors come into play. The other issue is that when the series keeps starting up races and after a year or two move elsewhere it can potentially cost them money. An event is not likely to be profitable in its first year if the promoter has done a proper amount of promotion. I suspect that a number of these events must have money injected by the series to make it worth the promoter's while.

[norman-normal]

Are John and Indy a tag team??