Champ Car 2007!!

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Well. Isn't this interesting! Exciting, too!

So essentially when someone like myself posts anything it is automatically negative and therefore unenthusiastic and/or bad. But when you, luke, get called on what you posted the back-tracking starts immediately with an attempt to validate your support of a small field by stating that somewhere along the line you too said that a small field is a negative.

Then we begin the whole process of throwing multiple things on the wall to see what sticks. The knife cuts both ways here. You can't support the small fields which you luke, and norman have done. Yes, the TV focus is on the pointy end of the field but if the field were large enough to have something going on in the back as well the focus would not have to be on the front. As Mystery correctly points out; a title race means very little when it is not difficult to gain them. It would seem then for at least one of you that a 7 car field is fine as long as you did not actually pay for a ticket. But how you can say you want bigger fields but bigger fields "at the end of the day make zero difference." It is either important or it is not. It can't be both. Further, much of the excitement recently has been due to the whims of nature. Having attended a Can-Am race or two when the series was in it's death throes, believe me, there are few things less entertaining than watching 9 cars going around a 2 or 3 mile road course.

Now, tossed into the maelestrom of questions were a number of things that have nothing to do with the racing so far in 2007, so why not start a thread if you wish on those subjects and we can address them specifically there.

Re-read my first post again.

Originally Posted by luke

So.....where is the enthusiasm? This place is dry as a bone.. This is Champ Car!

Sure things were not good with the start of the season. Far from it to be honest. Certainly didn't meet the goal that was planned for the season that was meant to be a leap forward... BUT since Cleveland we have had fantastic races. Mt.Tremblant a fantastic road course and now part of the rich Champ car tradition. Then the soaked Toronto race which was thrilling.

With the European swing which I can't wait for in the fall I think that is where CC will start pick up even more. The two events will be big and the ticket sales are already doing well. Title sponsor just announced for the Assen race. Then in 2008 there will be another 2 Euro races in UK and Germany or France. Each year in the spring and fall to Euro swings of the great road courses of Europe. The fans will turn out as they really are promoting the Euro events well. They will be the better races of the season.

Promotion has lacked in years past with CC, with the exception of Edmonton, they really are making steps forward.

With the Euro swings and already new sponsors and the new adult team there should be the home drives of Europe at the Euro races with 1 car deals or aditional cars added to teams and a stepping stone for 2008 with hopefully new teams and drivers.

Steve Johnson has recently been replaced by Tony Cotman which is fantastic news. I was never a fan of SJ. The way he let CC slip in the build up cost CC heavily. TC is a good man, he knows what needs to be done and it looks as though he'll be doing his best to make them happen.

And above all its great now that the DP 01 problems have been fixed. The standing starts have been a great success. I'm not really a fan of the timed races but hey.... The DP 01 has really helped this year with new teams being competitive. We've had 4 different teams win races already this year. Team Australia, Newman/Haas/Lanigan , Indeck Forsythe Championship Racing and of course Minardi USA. The points battle is also very exciting and close between Will Power, Bourdais and Doornbos.

Buying the DP 01 didn't help at all for the current teams because they had to buy a new chassis when years passed they kept they fateful Lolas or Reynards in the chassis freeze days.. But 2008 the current teams will already have their own and all will continue in 2008 as they won't have to spend out on a new chassis.

And continuing on with the drivers... Sure 17 cars isn't good at all...But overall from 1st to 17th the drivers are all competitive and a lot of new talent this year from Europe and their own Atlantics series. The Toronto qualifying gap was 1 and a half seconds from 1st to last..I rest my point.

Either way things really seem to be picking up.. Sure I miss the Lola CART era chassis. The DP 01 just doesn't seem CC but its starting to grow on me. Either way Champ Car fans have some exciting months laying a head.

It's good to be back.

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Non-threatening, off-the-cuff comment: For not caring one whit about the IRL. there sure is a lot written about the IRL here in the CC 2007 thread...

I mean, if it is such an inferior product, why do folks spend so much time trying to demonstrate it is an inferior product?

Whistling in the dark, perhaps?

I was the only one who mentioned the IRL. John it's not a taboo. And secondly I only mentioned the IRL to compare the situation with Champ Car with how they have 1 or 2 extra cars but they add nothing to the series in terms of racing. For the last time, I'd want to see more cars in Champ Car but 1 or 2 and cars that are at the back don't add anything to the racing so it would hardly be a quick fix.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Did I ever say you did??

No but you were saying if that makes me a basher then so be it and I said you wern't.

That's nice - I thought we were discussing CCWS though. IRL's faults can have a BIG thread of their own elsewhere. As for MotoGp you get 1 point for 15th which if you're in a 30 bike grid actually means something you've had to fight for. Is it even possible to get 1 point in CCWS (or indeed IRL if you must)?

I don't know that's irrelevant really as my interest is with Champ Car.

Now if we're discussing lack of enthusiasm how do you figure this one. All of us are posting here because we care about the series - you represent that care one way and I have no issue with that. My care is shown via wanting the series to succeed now, because I am genuinely concerned that it is heading rapidly down the toilet and quality drivers like Doornbos, Wilson, Bourdais and <gritted teeth> Tracy </gritted teeth> deserve a quality series to show their obvious talents. I'm just not sure CC is it (and no I dont think IRL is at present either). Given that background surely if I just quietly accept the status quo then I'm accepting the series is doomed - believe me I ain't prepared to accept that quite yet.
I don't believe anyone recently in this thread has said anything positive about the IRL either.I don't enjoy it at present but did last season - why should I not express those views? Simply because it will spoil the utopian quality of this thread apparently. I don't pine for the CART era because I don't really know the CART era very well. I watched Mansell's first season and I've seen a smattering of races ever since Sky showed them a few years back but I can't really pine for something I don't know about.

Champ Car is hardly strong we aren't saying it is but it's a broken record everyone complaining about the same things over and over Mystery.

But do I want CCWS to change and grow - you're damn right I do. But don't expect me to be quiet in a thread looking back at the season so far if I feel it's not been a success.

Dito from what I said above.

[JohnSSC]

Bottom line here, for me, is that the things that were supposed to be resuscitating CC have not. Yes, thanks to rain there was some excitement on-track. But, between lack of whatever on some of the driver's part and inadequate development of the car itself has degraded the experience rather than improved it. Further, the broadcasts of the race still tend to look like infomercials.

The point, speaking of the Panoz, was to allow teams to lease the engine/chassis at a far lower expense than purchasing the chassis. This was to encourage new teams to join the show. Furhter, IF your goal is to have yet another spec series then it would behoove you (as series owners/organizers) to have a grid that is "full" and being as how the costs are low the side benfit should be that talented racers (RHR, Michael Valiente, etc) would be able to put deals together to do the series.

A full grid, with battles up and down for position, would do a lot to attract the attention of race fans and perhaps fans who watch the other series or no longer pay attention to OW. This has not happened and I see few signs of it happening.

What the future may hold is a topic for another thread. Based on what I have seen so far of this season I can't imagine that the "goals" portion of the business plan has seen any of the items checked off. A big part of the problem for me is that running a series is no place for hobby racers to be and true progress will be made when the "owners" are not also car owners.

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by luke

Champ Car is hardly strong we aren't saying it is but it's a broken record everyone complaining about the same things over and over Mystery.

If we're complaining about the same things over and over then surely something remains wrong, so it is still worth complaining about. Sorry if that's not enthusiastic enough for some people here, but in my personal opinion OW in the US is generally in a rather poor state and I don't find it easy to just accept that that is just how it is and if we don't like it we should move on.

Before I leave the thread for good - One final thought on the issue about not feeling that backmarker teams would be an addition. If Katherine Legge or Tristan Gommendy were to win a race or get a podium it would rightly be big news - think back to when Darren Manning was running up front in the street IRL race a few weeks back. The reason these things are big news is because its a wonderful suprise to us all that a lesser team / driver is performing out of their skin. Those backmarker teams / drivers are often tomorrows front runners and all entries good and bad really should be welcome - they do add something to the series even if they are not competing with the Bourdaiss* of this world. Would the series be a lesser series without the inclusion of PCM or Coyne - of course it would and I don't believe anyone would disagree with that.

Hope I can return into this thread at the end of the season and tell you I've seen something that changes my opinion.


*what is the plural of Bourdais? Bourdaii?? anyway....as you were....

[racerkeke]

Maybe those of us who really are excited are just spending more time at the track than posting...

Me and Racegypsy are looking forward to seeing the Champ Cars, TWO Atlantic races and two support events at Edmonton. Now Edmonton, there's a place they love Champ Car. I've never seen full grandstands for ANY series stay in place during a two-hour rain delay, which is what we had for the inaugural in '05. In both '05 and '06 the promoters essentially ran out of event t-shirts on Friday and had to print more. We'll see how they like the DP01.

keke

[norman-normal]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Care to back that up, norm?

Sorry Paul, I don't offer courses in psychology, but it has to do with the popularity of "blood sports".

[Leighton Irwin]

Well, despite some negatives this thread seems to have stirred up the missing interest!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by luke

So.....where is the enthusiasm? This place is dry as a bone.. This is Champ Car!

My opinion is that people have fallen into one of three (or more?) categories.

a) people tired of listening to negative voices, those who opinion differs from theirs, so they've gone to more "one view" boards.

b) People have tired of the discussion of the problems of the series, and don't pay attention to forums at all.

c) People have tired of the direction of the series, and no longer pay attention to the series.

To some degree, I think everyone acknowledges this isn't as good as it once was. The argument seems to be about whether it is going up, down or sideways over the past couple of years. It is hard to watch something you have passion for struggle... double hard when the struggles are all people want to talk about.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

So essentially when someone like myself posts anything it is automatically negative and therefore unenthusiastic and/or bad.

Well from my memory I have never seen you post anything positive or enthusiastic about champcar. Which is probably why you receive the reaction and suspicion you do.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

My opinion is that people have fallen into one of three (or more?) categories.

a) people tired of listening to negative voices, those who opinion differs from theirs, so they've gone to more "one view" boards.

b) People have tired of the discussion of the problems of the series, and don't pay attention to forums at all.

c) People have tired of the direction of the series, and no longer pay attention to the series.

To some degree, I think everyone acknowledges this isn't as good as it once was. The argument seems to be about whether it is going up, down or sideways over the past couple of years. It is hard to watch something you have passion for struggle... double hard when the struggles are all people want to talk about.

I'd agree with most of that. For champcar stuff I stay with the "one view" board mostly because I get tired of the same old arguments with the same old people. For me personally when I watch a champcar race it doesn't "feel" any different then it did 10 years ago. I am well aware of issues champcar faces, but I don't need to wallow in it on a daily basis or while I'm enjoying a race. It is what it is. People do plenty of *****ing about F1, Nascar and Rally for instance. It's like dating a woman. There is no perfect woman. They all have their baggage and issues and it all comes down to what you are willing to put up with. Champcar has baggage and issues and I guess it doesn't affect my ability to enjoy the series. I have chosen to live with it and I guess others haven't.

[marcus]

ok well this thread is out of hand so I am going to close it.

I feel some of you have been badly mis-informed as to why ceretain people are not posting anymore and if you knew the truth you would understand.
No One has been pushed out of any forum at all.

that however isnt the issue.

so this thread has run its course , American Open Wheel racing has changed , maybe for the better maybe for the worse but it is what it is and some of us still enjoy it.

If you dont then dont watch it.

one of the reasons that postings have dropped is because of TV deals , how can you post if you dont get to see the races anymore ?

Australia will finally start to get coverage from this weekend so I guess you could see more Aussie's posting now , but most of that demographic didnt post because they didnt have TV coverage , pretty hard to make a decision on something you havent seen isnt it ?

as for moderation of the forum.

If you have a problem then PM , do not bring it into the open forum , If I cannot settle your dispute then I will pass it on to someone who can , but we will not have blatant open moderator bashing on Ten Tenths , that is simply one of the forum rules.

Not happy then hit the warn button , we will deal with it.

I cant say it simpler thatn that.

Have a happy Edmonton