Has a driver ever won the WDC in a car that wasn't the best

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Graz

What car was better? There was no stand out car that year iirc.

I disagree. the Lotuses (sp?) weren't so good...Jochen was...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jimclark

I disagree. the Lotuses (sp?) weren't so good...Jochen was...

He was, but big statement with Stewart, Ickx and Peterson in the field.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Graz

To the other answers I'll add the 92 and 93 Williams. Waaay superior to everything else and in every circumstance. These cars were more dominant than the 88 McLaren which was against a field split between atmos and turbos which were not equally balanced. Technically in 92 & 93, everyone was on a level playing field as opposed to the transition year that was 88.

'84 McLaren too, only the unreliability of that era prevented more wins. They still won 11 out of 16 or whatever it was.

Yes I was going to say the same re '92 and probably '93.

In 1992 i'm fairly sure that had there not been a few incidents or freak circumstances Mansell or Patrese could have won every GP in the FW14B!!

In '93 maybe the advantage was less but Prost never really extended himself more than necessary and I think there was some help to Damon from mid year to get him off the mark.

A fully committed Prost, even at 39, would have seen them all off in the FW15.

1984 was much closer but McLaren were more consistent than anyone else. Ferrari when working was the fastest car, Lotus, Brabham & Williams were very up and down/unreliable.

[chunder]

Prost in 86 of course. Wiliams was by far the quicker car in most situations, as was Senna's Lotus at times.

Rosberg in 82 aswell.

[chunterer]

1990. The Ferrari was quicker and Prost may well have taken the tile that year if Senna hadn't done the Suzuka thing.

[wnut]

2007 McLarens of Hamilton and Alonso were best cars, Raikkonen won it in the Ferrari.

[S griffin]

I'd say in 1990 and 2007, neither McLaren nor Ferrari had the better car, they were both on a par with each other.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by wnut

He was, but big statement with Stewart, Ickx and Peterson in the field.

Exactly. Stewart and Peterson were in the March which was awful. The Lotus was also better than Ickx's Ferrari.

Goes back to my point, the Lotus was by no means the worst car, actually it was probably the best.

[jimclark]

I stand semi-corrected.
I remember being disappointed that it started out a flop, thus the extended use of the 49. I guess that scarred this young (goodness, at the time...) Lotus fan's memory. Once gotten semi-right, Jochen did make good use of it. However, in my defense, it fared not so well without Jochen in '71, which I also assume is what partially caused my mention of '70's success by the flying (who remembers his 49, guardrail to guardrail, in the closing laps of Monaco?) Rindt in the "underdeveloped" 72.

Excerpted from www.grandprixhistory.org :

" The car that most defined the whole first half of 1970s was the Lotus 72. Ask any long-time racing fan what car comes to mind when you say ‘Formula 1’ and at least half of them will think of wedge-shaped black and gold type 72. It’s partly because the Lotus 72 participated in as much as 6 seasons and 74 World Championship races but most of all the car owes its fame to its record of success – 20 Grand Prix wins, 2 Drivers Championships and 3 Constructors Championship titles, results unabridged for more than a decade. Design thinking was moving in great waves at the end of 60s: wings and aerodynamics, 4 wheel drive, tyre developments…

Lotus introduced the dominant Ford-Cosworth DFV engine to F1 in 1968 and built a new car for it, the Type 49. It was a simple design but yet a successful car, constantly developed during its three-and-a-half-years of lifetime. Unfortunately its intended replacements, the turbine powered Type 56B and 4WD Type 63 both failed and the Type 49 was retained in use for longer than was intended. Its successor simply had to be a big step forward.

The Type 72 was 2WD Cosworth-engined car designed by Maurice Phillippe and supervised by Colin Chapman. While it may seem that Lotus had gotten back to conventional thinking but that would not be altogether correct. The Type 72 had many novelties, some of which were of revolutionary importance. Its unique wedge shape was derived from the Type 56. While the water radiators were moved from the nose and split into two and situated on each side of the cockpit. This improved aerodynamic flow and moved the weight bias towards the rear end. This was considered important to ensure better traction because of the high engine power and torque. Steps in the same direction were the biggest-yet rear wing with 3 separate pieces and new Firestone tyres. The suspension was designed with torsion bar springs with progressive rate. Front suspension had an anti-dive geometry to prevent the car from burying it nose under braking (for what the Type 49 was notorious) and the rear suspension had anti-squat geometry to prevent the car from lifting its nose under acceleration. All of that should have ensured that the car had maintained the same ground clearance and thus consistent aerodynamic characteristics irrespective of the fuel load, or or whether it was under breaking or acceleration.

Unsprung weight was of newly found importance and consequently all 4 brakes were mounted inboard. The front brakes were attached to hollow brakeshafts and the front suspension consisted of upper and lower wishbones, torsion bars, anti-roll bar and telescopic dampers mounted inboard. Rear suspension incorporated lower wishbone, top link, only one radius rod since the suspension was relieved of braking loads (because the brakes were mounted inboard), torsion bars, anti-roll bar and telescopic dampers mounted inboard. They were soon resituated to outboard position because of overheating. The bathtub-type monocoque was made of sheet aluminum and had a subframe with the front suspension attached to the subframe and the engine/gearbox/suspension block attached at the rear.

As such, the car debuted at the Spanish GP on April 19, 1970. The drivers were Jochen Rindt and a young John miles. It was a poor showing and another outing, at the BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone 7 days later, produced a similar poor showing. The car was temporarily withdrawn from service and thoroughly reworked in the Lotus’ factory. Chassis 72 R2 (Rindt’s car) had both anti-squat and anti-dive removed to improve road holding in corners while 72 R1 (miles’ car) were less extensively modified with removal of only the anti-squat. The internal designation for these modifications was B (for removal of anti-squat) and C (for removal of both anti-squat and anti-dive). According to Maurice Phillippe, the trouble with the anti-dive suspension was that it gave the driver very little "feel". He could lap as fast with it as without it, but less consistently. Chapman would later wish that the team had stuck with both longer before giving up.

The Type 72 came good after modifications and Rindt went on to win 4 consecutive races and ensure a huge lead in drivers’ table. Also, a major innovation appeared at the British GP: an airbox. The airbox is an aerodynamically shaped air intake sealed to the engine inlet trumpets which increases the pressure of the air which enters the engine and thus increases power.

However, the fairy tale was to be interrupted by tragedy. On Saturday morning’s free practice in Monza Rindt tried his 72C with no wings. This arrangement was thought to be better suited to the high-speed Italian circuit. While braking from maximum speed on the entry to the famous Parabolica, Rindt’s car snapped to the left, hit the poorly installed safety barriers and was demolished. Jochen Rindt died from his injuries. The probable cause of the accident was a failure of one of front brakeshafts due to poor manufacturing. Jochen Rindt was replaced in the team by a young Brazilian named Emerson Fittipaldi who rose to the challenge magnificently and won the penultimate race of the year in USA to clinch world titles for both Jochen Rindt and Team Lotus.

1971 was a low year for Lotus. The Rindt accident hung as a dark shadow over the team, there were legal problems and Fittipaldi had a road accident. All that added up to only a handful of podium places and no wins. The D specification was introduced on Fittipaldi’s car at Monaco: rear suspension gained one more radius rod and the lower wishbone was replaced by parallel links. Further modifications on the cars saw a new one-piece rear wing and a different oil tank design.

The cars were repainted for 1972. Being red and white with gold stripes before, they now became black and gold and would hence be known as ‘John Player Specials’ due to the sponsorship agreement. One of the most famous liveries in history of Formula One was thus created. The cars continued to run under the D specification. The oil tank was further modified and the rear wing was pushed ever further back to increase rear downforce. New regulations demanded thicker protection of the fuel tanks and the cars were modified accordingly. It was a successful year. Fittipaldi won 5 races and was crowned World Champion "

[S griffin]

What about Fred in 2006? The car started as the best, but when mass dampers were banned, the Ferrari seemed faster

[TF110]

What about 2008 with Lewis? I think Massa being able to have one hand on the title with his Ferrari says something. The cars may not have had much between them, but I think the Ferrari was a slightly better car overall that year. I think the same can be said this year. In hot weather, the Ferrari is better than Mercedes. In cool weather they're not quite as fast. Vettel has had lots of failures and brain fades this season tbf. I think the Ferrari is a more consistent car in any condition. The Mercedes has some tire temp issues.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TF110

What about 2008 with Lewis? I think Massa being able to have one hand on the title with his Ferrari says something. The cars may not have had much between them, but I think the Ferrari was a slightly better car overall that year. I think the same can be said this year. In hot weather, the Ferrari is better than Mercedes. In cool weather they're not quite as fast. Vettel has had lots of failures and brain fades this season tbf. I think the Ferrari is a more consistent car in any condition. The Mercedes has some tire temp issues.

2017

Mercedes 12 poles: Hamilton 10; Bottas 2

Ferrari 4 poles: Vettel 3; Raikkonen 1

[Kempi]

Fascinating that people are still trying to manufacture the Ferrari into the better car considering it is hopelessly behind in poles, wins and reliability.

[sethmate]

And vettel's "moments of brain fade" being down to over-driving the car, perhaps?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Fascinating that people are still trying to manufacture the Ferrari into the better car considering it is hopelessly behind in poles, wins and reliability.

I think Ferraris recent form flatters the Mercedes.

There's no doubt the ferrari is consistanctly the faster race car and has a larger operating window on more th racks than the Mercedes. Reliability has let them down of late as did their implosion at Singapore. Take out a dodgy spark plug and crash in Singapore and the ferrari would probably have 2 more wins

[Kempi]

Better does not necessarily mean faster only. Better is the total som of a car‘s properties. This includes reliability. I would rather say Spa and Malaysia were off weekends for Mercedes (they never built their cars for the tight circuits like Hungary and Singapore) and races like Silverstone, Monza and today show their true form. So bringing up 2017 as a season where Hamilton would win a WDC in an inferior car is really quite ridiculous.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Better does not necessarily mean faster only. Better is the total som of a car‘s properties. This includes reliability. I would rather say Spa and Malaysia were off weekends for Mercedes (they never built their cars for the tight circuits like Hungary and Singapore) and races like Silverstone, Monza and today show their true form. So bringing up 2017 as a season where Hamilton would win a WDC in an inferior car is really quite ridiculous.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Better does not necessarily mean faster only. Better is the total som of a car‘s properties. This includes reliability. I would rather say Spa and Malaysia were off weekends for Mercedes (they never built their cars for the tight circuits like Hungary and Singapore) and races like Silverstone, Monza and today show their true form. So bringing up 2017 as a season where Hamilton would win a WDC in an inferior car is really quite ridiculous.

Agreed

I think this year more than any has shown how different teams have taken a different direction with their cars. Makes it interesting really!

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I think this year more than any has shown how different teams have taken a different direction with their cars. Makes it interesting really!

Now, if McLaren can git back on track with Renault, we could have a four way. Yahoo!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Now, if McLaren can git back on track with Renault, we could have a four way. Yahoo!

Yup! Would love mclaren and Renault get back up there. Red bull have been the team of the second half of 2017, if they carry on that development rate 2018 could be a great season

[RWill2073]

Whatever Ferrari had to stop doing that was pushing the limits of the rules around Austria took them from more or less equal with Mercedes to being quite a bit behind.