Jos the boss - PAH!

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by knowlesy
A somewhat wild claim methinks. He belongs in his own category, between the likes of the ones you mentioned and the Alex Yoongs and Tarso Marques' (Melbourne 2001 spec) of this world!

Indeed. But since there is no way to objectivily measure driverskill, there is not really anything you can do about those wild claims. That is with what I have to put up with being an F1-fan and having the Dutch nationality. Things will fall back to earth once Jos has left the F1-scene. Viewer-ratings will drop dramatically though. Most of the so-called Dutch racefans don't care about F1 or racing in general at all. They only care about Jos Verstappen.

[steve nielsen]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
So, you expect Johnny to pick up points at least every two GP's. Get real.

The same reason he apperantly asked Sinchi Nakano? [/B]

Yes, a experienced driver like Herbert should have picked up some points in that Benetton.

and Honda never aproached Shinji Nakano, only Jos and later Mika Salo......

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by steve nielsen
Yes, a experienced driver like Herbert should have picked up some points in that Benetton.

and Honda never aproached Shinji Nakano, only Jos and later Mika Salo......

So, now even Mika Salo is a supertalent.

Anyway, the claim that an experienced driver is obliged to pick up points at least every two races, cannot be taken seriously. There are many reasons why points weren't scored. Besides, Johnny didn't have that much mileage in the car before he was thrown in the deep. If it's about Jos, you bent over backwards to find excuses for his lack of pointscoring, but if its about any other driver, you just 'demand' points and when they don't score you have your 'evidence' that they have underachieved. Furthermore, first you claim that Schumacher is the only one that could ever drive that Benetton, then you claim Herbert should've taken points straight away simply because of experience?

Nice to see that a driver that has under-achieved in your view, gets the seat from a driver that has performed really well, again in your view. Apperantly, Benetton-management thought otherwise and I don't think they've ever regret their decision. Nor has Stewart.

[DNQ]

Right, nice debate between NiceGuyEddie and Steve...now my conclusion on Jos?

Pretty quick, pretty agressive, fun to watch and worthy of his seat. But just how good is he?

I'd rate him above Firman on raw talent, ahead of Ralf Schumacher on aggression, and ahead of Pizzonia and Trulli on racecraft, and nearing the aging talents of Frentzen for example. Jos is alright, and it's great to have him in that Minardi compared to the skills of Marques, Yoong and Mazzacane that have filled the seat over the years....

1989 Won European karting title
1993 German Formula 3 Champion
1994 F1 Benetton (gets first start in Brazil after JJ Lehto suffered neck injury in pre-season testing); Escaped with minor burns from pit-lane fireball when his Benetton caught fire during refuelling at Hockenheim; finished 10th in the WC, 10 points.
1995 F1 Simtek
1996 F1 Arrows; finished 16th in the WC, 1 point
1997 F1 Tyrrell
1998 F1 Stewart-Ford; raced in the last nine races of the season, replacing Jan Magnussen
1999 F1 Honda's test-driver
2000 F1 Arrows Supertec, 5 points, 12th
2001 F1 Arrows Asiatech, 1 point, 18th
2003 F1 Minardi Cosworth

Well of the teams he has raced for, only in 1994 and 2000 did he have a real chance of scoring points, with a half chance in 1996 and 2001. And 1994 is pretty null and void, Benetton probably didnt even care about the second care.

[Adam43]

One thing I would like to say is my experience of Jos fans are that they have a good time. There are plenty at every GP, but expecially Spa where they seem to line the walk down to La Source - all in great spirits!

Also while visiting Reims it seems they have been around for some time too

.

[Knowlesy]

Oh that's just an average race weekend turnout at the Jos Verstappen fanclub, Adam!

[steve nielsen]

I don't kow, but there are 14 thousand members.

[Knowlesy]

14 thousand? How? Why? Who?

[BootsOntheSide]

I bet at least 13000 of them are Dutch though.

I think Jos has had his day. At no point has he really matched the ultimate potential of a car, although only 1998 did he really fail to get anything out of the hardware. There are worse drivers who've raced against him in F1, or raced while he's been out fo a drive, but guys like De La Rosa, Irvine and Sato shouldn't be watching Jos race from the sidelines.

[steve nielsen]

Jos is a lot better than Sato and Jos also beat PDLR when they where teammates in 2000.

[DNQ]

Yes, but De La Rosa was perceived by many to be the faster of the pair (including myself). Sato had plenty potential, but didn't show it, so a comparison is hard.

Of drivers in recent years, Jos is probably IMO better than the likes of Burti, Firman, Pizzonia (however, he'll probably improve alot), but perhaps a smidgen behind drivers like Salo, Panis and Herbert who just seem to have slightly better race craft, if not the aggression of Jos....but in all cases, it's a close call. I'd describe Jos's talents as worthy of a lower mid-field team, which seems to be where he has spent most of his career, barring Simtek and now Minardi.

[steve nielsen]

Originally posted by DNQ
Yes, but De La Rosa was perceived by many to be the faster of the pair (including myself).

Pedro had a bit more luck in some races/qualifying session so he seemed to be faster, but was'nt.

while PDLR put his Arrows on 5th(???) position in the 2000 Hockenheim GP on a still dry track, Jos was stuck in the pits cause his car would'nt start and could't get on track after the track was completely wet.

[steve nielsen]

a quote from an interview Atlasf1 had wit Justin Wilson:

"Jos is a very quick driver, but he doesn't get the recognition that he deserves, but his fan base helps keep him there."

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by steve nielsen
a quote from an interview Atlasf1 had wit Justin Wilson:

"Jos is a very quick driver, but he doesn't get the recognition that he deserves, but his fan base helps keep him there."

Well he would say that - he's trying to not only promote the team, but also himself.

It was De La Rosa who ran 3rd in Austria until the car failed. De La Rosa who qualified ahead of Jos in Monza before being hit by Herbert, in the race Jos got the points that pushed him clear of De La Rosa.

[steve nielsen]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
It was De La Rosa who ran 3rd in Austria until the car failed. De La Rosa who qualified ahead of Jos in Monza before being hit by Herbert, in the race Jos got the points that pushed him clear of De La Rosa.

It was De La Rosa who ran into the back of Herberts car at Monza. I was Jos who ran 2nd with that same Arrows in Brazil.

[steve nielsen]

and Yes, he qualified ahead of Jos, but:

10 Pedro de la Rosa Arrows F1 Team 1:24.814 + 1.044 + 0.025 244.911
11 Jos Verstappen Arrows F1 Team 1:24.820 + 1.05 + 0.006 244.894

[steve nielsen]

BTW: I also just remebered the problem Jos had in that qualifying session, the team had 2 qualifying engines and the one in Jos's car blew up on his inlap after his first or second flyer, since there were only 2 qualifying engines Jos had to do the rest of the session with the spare car with a normal supertec.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by DNQ

Of drivers in recent years, Jos is probably IMO better than the likes of Burti, Firman, Pizzonia (however, he'll probably improve alot), but perhaps a smidgen behind drivers like Salo, Panis and Herbert who just seem to have slightly better race craft, if not the aggression of Jos....but in all cases, it's a close call. I'd describe Jos's talents as worthy of a lower mid-field team, which seems to be where he has spent most of his career, barring Simtek and now Minardi.

I think this is a pretty fair assumption of Jos' status as a driver. Since there is no point in trying to convince a fan that this actually is a fair assumption, this discussion can be ended. Right?

[steve nielsen]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
I think this is a pretty fair assumption of Jos' status as a driver. Since there is no point in trying to convince a fan that this actually is a fair assumption, this discussion can be ended. Right?

I don't think you are the one who can say this since you hate Jos...........

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by steve nielsen
I don't think you are the one who can say this since you hate Jos...........

Well, ask DNQ then...

There is no arguing with you, since you even seem to believe Jos is a better driver than Takuma Sato...

[Fred Perry]

Watchutalkinbout, NGE?

[steve nielsen]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Well, ask DNQ then...

There is no arguing with you, since you even seem to believe Jos is a better driver than Takuma Sato...

Jos is a lot better than Takuma Sato

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by steve nielsen
Jos is a lot better than Takuma Sato

Yes, you said so. The fact that it is bull*** doesn't seem to mind you one bit. So any further discussion on this matter doesn't really serve a purpose, now does it?

[Fred Perry]

It's a fact that Jos is better than Taku, for now at least.
When Taku get's more experience he'll be better.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Fred Perry
It's a fact that Jos is better than Taku, for now at least.
When Taku get's more experience he'll be better.

When Taku gets more experience he will be lightyears ahead of Jos. For now, he is merely 'a lot' better. Be that as it may, there's a big chance Jos is out of F1 once Sato steps back in.