Prost or Senna?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by krt917

He would often get the car right for the race.

That was one of the critical reasons Prost was so successful. In an era were cars were a lot less reliable than they are today, Prost managed his machine optimally until the very end of a race. He was lighteningly quick, make no mistake about it, but he also knew how to make it to P1 on the only lap that mattered. Senna was a lot more balls out in terms of driving, but was very often not there when it mattered [i.e. the last lap]. That's one of the reasons he had more poles and Prost had more fastest laps.

[BootsOntheSide]

I know this isn't particularly relevent, but do you think Prost would be as successful in the modern era, in which cars are more reliable and the extensive pre-race simulation makes finding the right race setup a much easier job? And how would ualifying on race fuel affect his approach? Senna's ability to set the perfect single lap could probably translate to the mdoern system as well as Kimi's.

[Kicking-back]

Prost would have been very good with the 2005 tyre rules.

But they're now taking that skill away.

[Aysedasi]

Clean or other wise, I have to go for the racer - always have, always will do - for me, its motor racing I enjoy. That's why it will always have to be Senna, warts n'all.

[John Turner]

Well we would never have guessed that Ayse!

Seriously though, I think Prost was a 'racer' in his earlier days but that by the time Senna came along, he had reached a level of skill and strategy (as Lauda had before him) which meant that he could win races with less drama and risk. I wonder whether, had he lived, Senna might not have taken a similar approach towards the end of his career. He was highly intelligent, as indeed was/is Prost, and it seems that he (Senna) was becoming more and more concerned about safety issues.

[Adam43]

You can have a very similar discuss about two drivers, but base it about eight years earlier. Substitute the name Prost for Lauda and the name Senna for Prost.

[chunterer]

Excellent point Adam,

it's interesting how there's usually been a crossover period from the established ace to the 'pretender'

Fittipaldi took over the baton from JYS
Lauda took it from Emmo....
then there was a period when there wasn't a discernible one driver clear at the head of things as Hunt, Lauda, Andretti, Jones, Scheckter etc all battled it out...
then Jones took over briefly (imo)....
passed onto Piquet/Prost and then Lauda again
Prost then established himself as numero uno....
then Senna took it on and then well, Schuey was about to try and take it from Ayrton

Now we have 2 guys battling hard to take it (have they already) from Schuey.

What is clear from all of this that fort the most part the 'thinking' driver has had the mantle more often than the 'racer'.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Excellent point Adam,

Yes, excellent point Adam; especially as it was elaborating on mine!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Well we would never have guessed that Ayse!

Seriously though, I think Prost was a 'racer' in his earlier days but that by the time Senna came along, he had reached a level of skill and strategy (as Lauda had before him) which meant that he could win races with less drama and risk. I wonder whether, had he lived, Senna might not have taken a similar approach towards the end of his career. He was highly intelligent, as indeed was/is Prost, and it seems that he (Senna) was becoming more and more concerned about safety issues.

May I join the mutual admiration society :-) This is absolutely it on the button here John. Prost had reached a stage in his driving career that Senna hadn't yet. At the point we're comparing them, Prost was essentially more efficient in terms of winning races/championships and that's something that experience probably brings. I hate to use the word maturity, but maybe that's the closest descriptor.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Yes, excellent point Adam; especially as it was elaborating on mine!

Well I wouldn't come up with it on my own.

Perhaps we were entering Senna's Prost/Lauda/... phase in '94?

I think that 1/2 point in '84 really grabbed Prosty's attention. However racer he was. Still Aysedasi's point is still true the latin racer spirit is very evident in Senna and that way of racing attracts fans (all of us).

I don't think I have said who I chose. Well I refuse to, I refuse to chose between them because whoever I chose I will be wrong.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I think that 1/2 point in '84 really grabbed Prosty's attention.

Very true, but he has said, I believe, that 1984, with Lauda, was one of his most enjoyable F1 seasons of his career. I don't think the relationship between Senna and Prost was ever as cordial, even at the beginning.

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I don't think I have said who I chose. Well I refuse to, I refuse to chose between them because whoever I chose I will be wrong.

Well, that's because you're always wrong, Adam! In reality it is difficult to make such a call, unless you are a diehard supporter of one or the other, since they were such an integral part of a great era in F1 racing which also had Mansell, Piquet, Berger and Patrese amongst others.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Very true, but he has said, I believe, that 1984, with Lauda, was one of his most enjoyable F1 seasons of his career. I don't think the relationship between Senna and Prost was ever as cordial, even at the beginning.

From what I've seen, read and heared, Senna never could stand a good relationship alongside competition. I wonder if he ever would act like a father with Barrichello, if it had a competitive car at that time.

[Swiss]

True the Williams was hard to drive but it evolved into an awesome car and it would have been likely that Senna would have been at the wheel which therefore I expect would have lead to more poles, races wins and WDC's and this in turn would have impacted Scumachers stats and so on ..... however inspite of that as it didn't happen I still rate Senna over Prost inspite of Prosts superiort stats ( albeit slight ) Senna I believe have pure racecraft and passion running through him and his ability to perform in recognised under par cars was legendary .... Senna stirred the soul .... and greatness can not be measured by statistics alone

[chunterer]

Nicely put Swiss - the first part of your post would be at home on my WDC since 1980 thread - as it's running through the scenarios that have led to certain drivers/teams winning or not winning titels since then and the impacts it all could've had.

Especially likes the point at the bottom, Senna 'stirred the soul' I honestly felt that until Montoya arrived, there was no driver since Ayrton who had the ability during a race to pull off something phenomenal, or whatever to light it all up for us?

I had hoped JV would do that but he wasn't as spectacular.

However now we have at least 3 drivers who look like they're real racers and on the odd ocassion we see something mega from Schuey as well..

The clever consistent guys will always i guess be around longer as they take less risks, but the 'on the hammer' attacking guys are always more favoured by the likes of us lot!

[Swiss]

Thanks for the recognition Chunterer, I like what I've read in your posts as well so will keep an eye on your posts in the future.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Swiss

Thanks for the recognition Chunterer, I like what I've read in your posts as well so will keep an eye on your posts in the future.

That's nice of you Swiss, i didn't pick my user name for nothing though!!



I saw Andy Dickens post in the WDC thread about a certain driver having lost his drive a couple of times in his career, wheras his chief rival never did.. surely this can be counted as another indication of which of these two legends gets the nod over the other?!

[foreversideways]

In the whole scheme of things i think you have to look a long way to find a more commited, talented and intelegent driver than Ayrton Senna. At the time his life was Formula One to the exclusion of everything else. This of course could not have lasted and i expect he would not have stayed around for long after winning the title in 1994 championship, had he lived. He was becomming preoccupied with domestic issues in Brazil and the retirement of Prost had removed some of his motovation. I expect he would have grown quite quickly to see these these issues as more important than Formula one. I expect that by now he could well have been President of Brazil.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by foreversideways

He was becomming preoccupied with domestic issues in Brazil and the retirement of Prost had removed some of his motovation. I expect he would have grown quite quickly to see these these issues as more important than Formula one. I expect that by now he could well have been President of Brazil.

Those "Domestic issues" were that his family was putting pressure on him about his girlfriend, Adrianne Galisteu, with whom he decided to live with in Portugal, by the beginning of 94. They were decided to prove that she was not what he was thinking she was. At that time he was starting the Ayrton Senna Institure, devoted to help poor children to develop skills in the sports, and assist children in many ways.
Senna was focused more than never in F1. He was sure that with Williams, he could finally get the 5 titles that he always dreamed of. If it was different he would never would be killed.

Originally Posted by foreversideways

I expect that by now he could well have been President of Brazil.

Oh my GOD, no way ! Presidents are politicians, and Senna was far from it. Ex-shoeshine boys or PHDs in Sociology can become presidents in Brazil, a sportsman very unlikely.Although Brazil is a latin-american country, the psique of his population is very different from their neighbours.

[Nintendo]

Senna probably would have benn champion at least once more and he would have given schumi a right grilling, but let's not forget that Senna was a great humanitarian

[Hepatic]

There's nothing in it really, the qualities of both drivers in different aspects of their driving ended up being equal in all but one thing - the wet. I grew up watching Senna in the JPS Lotus, and wondered why my dad liked the guy so much when he was in such a dog of a car (relatively speaking). Then i saw him drive the wheels off the thing in the wet at Monaco. Prost hated the wet and IMHO it was because it stopped him being consistant, and so he was no where near Senna's pace when the track was anything but dry. To me that is what stands out the most about Senna - come rain or shine, crap car or not, he'd always put his full undivided effort in to winning whereas Prost would back off, or in some cases even quit if it got too wet.

Some of the most memorable races have involved Senna in less than ideal conditions. Portugal (his first win), Monaco and of course Donington '93. In the dry there was little between them but in the wet there there is only one winner - Senna.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

Prost hated the wet and IMHO it was because it stopped him being consistant

Prost hated the wet only after Hockenheim 1982 - and it was purely because he didn't like the lack of visibility - it doesn't matter how good a driver you car if you can't see

[foreversideways]

I remember Prost skittering off at the Italian GP in the warm up lap one year.

[safc_fan89]

Yeah, at Imola, so it was the San Marino GP. Whingeing about the wet doesn't do any good, yo0u have to go out and drive no matter what the conditions.

[foreversideways]

Didn't look much like a world champion at donnington either

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

Some of the most memorable races have involved Senna in less than ideal conditions. Portugal (his first win), Monaco and of course Donington '93. In the dry there was little between them but in the wet there there is only one winner - Senna.

While I acknowledge based on the stats that Prost was the better Grand Prix driver overall, it was Senna's prowess in the wet that marked him out as my personal favourite of the two. I remember willing him on to that first win in Estoril in the Lotus and seeing Peter Warr share our elation at a fabulous drive. His performance the year before in Monaco with the Toleman was incredible too. However I was lucky enough to be at Donnington that Sunday, for possibly one of the greatest F1 races ever, to see Senna drive the race of his life. The first few laps that day were truely mesmerizing as anyone who was there will remember. You knew you were witnessing something very special in the man on that day.