Group A Ford Sierra RS500

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by racer69

It's interesting to look at how many RS500s there were being used, especially in the BTCC, but there were very few teams/drivers to really get the hang of them properly to be competitive.

In the BTCC there was only really Andy Rouse Engineering (encompassing the Labatts cars & the Kaliber/ICS cars) & Trackstar who were consistently competitive, although Jerry Mahony did get a win to open the 1988 BTCC

Thoughts?

I would slightly disagree with this as Sean Walker in the FAI car was very good, Karl "boyo" Jones in the Duckhams car was fantastic at times, Laurence (sp) Bristow did bloody well and Dave Brodie (or his brother..) did very well too.

Quick question; where did the Trackstar Cosworth come from and who did ROBCO race with before?

As an aside and not meaning to turn this thread; my late Dad was promised a Cossie in '86 from Ford and it never happened, he kept trying for '87 too but someone somewhere said no; I wonder why/who......

[racer2_uk]

Hi Gregor, the "Trakstar" RS500's came from Dick Johnson in Australia, Robb drove DJR 1 and Mike Smith drove DJR 2, these were the first 2 sierra's the Johnson team used in the ATCC, DJR 1 came second at Bathurst in '88, it is the red and yellow liveried car in an earlier post.

Andy

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Quick question; where did the Trackstar Cosworth come from and who did ROBCO race with before?

As an aside and not meaning to turn this thread; my late Dad was promised a Cossie in '86 from Ford and it never happened, he kept trying for '87 too but someone somewhere said no; I wonder why/who......

The origin of the Trackstar car has been explained in a previous post by racer2_uk.
Robb Gravett had a few outings in the 1987 BTCC in a Rouse RS500 (the Pete Hall car), and also raced a Production Saloon / Group N Cosworth, but I cannot remember which series.
As to who within Ford blocked Gerry's Cosworth I can only speculate. [Apparently, Mike Smith (Robb Gravett's Trackstar team-mate) had family connections high up within Ford, and he obviously knew of Gerry from Prodsaloons. Surely he wouldn't have exerted his influence... ]

[agosling]

All I can say is that they were the dominate car of their time, they were fun to watch, but god they were ugly, without a doubt one of the ugliest cars ever to hit the track.

[KA]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

The origin of the Trackstar car has been explained in a previous post by racer2_uk.
Robb Gravett had a few outings in the 1987 BTCC in a Rouse RS500 (the Pete Hall car), and also raced a Production Saloon / Group N Cosworth, but I cannot remember which series.

Gravett ran mainly in the Uniroyal series I think, in a Graham Hathaway-prepared Cosworth. Initially I think it was backed by Robbco (presumably his own business), then picked up a deal with Arquati, after which the car was a near twin of Jerry Mahony's Arquati car, run by Roger Dowson (the paintjobs were very subtly different as I remember)

I'm trying to think where he'd raced before prodsaloons- I've got a vague memory of an MGB in one of the MGOC series?

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

The origin of the Trackstar car has been explained in a previous post by racer2_uk.
Robb Gravett had a few outings in the 1987 BTCC in a Rouse RS500 (the Pete Hall car), and also raced a Production Saloon / Group N Cosworth, but I cannot remember which series.
As to who within Ford blocked Gerry's Cosworth I can only speculate. [Apparently, Mike Smith (Robb Gravett's Trackstar team-mate) had family connections high up within Ford, and he obviously knew of Gerry from Prodsaloons. Surely he wouldn't have exerted his influence... ]

Sorry, must read thread properly before posting questions!!

I think the Production Saloon car was a team with Jerry Mahoney, the white and green Arquatti (sp) frames cars (Dad did get to race one of them in '87!!) and I think it was still Uniroyal Production Saloons then.
You could be right about Mike but they got on (ish!!) in Prodsaloons so don't know, shame really.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by KA

Gravett ran mainly in the Uniroyal series I think, in a Graham Hathaway-prepared Cosworth. Initially I think it was backed by Robbco (presumably his own business), then picked up a deal with Arquati, after which the car was a near twin of Jerry Mahony's Arquati car, run by Roger Dowson (the paintjobs were very subtly different as I remember)

I'm trying to think where he'd raced before prodsaloons- I've got a vague memory of an MGB in one of the MGOC series?

I should post more quickly, as agree with this.

Robco was a haulage/recovery company IIRC and he raced an MG Midget and an MGB before prodsaloons (Dad bought/sold both of them), IIRC they were whitre with some red piping, was 20 years ago though.

[craig j]

racer2_uk, also saw your car last year at Rockingham and I am extremely jealous. That's a great racing car you have there. Would be nice to see it racing again!

bdwoody, you don't work with Greg and Robin at Xsport do you?

I can understand that in some eyes that the Cossie is one of the ugliest race cars, but it is all in the eye of the beholder. Some of us like the ugly uns...

Can't be many cars like it when they come on boost. Even my road converted race Cossie in production saloon setup is a handful for a club racer. Would love to try a Group A car.

[davyboy]

I don't think they were ugly at all, I thought the Cossie was probably the most amazing saloon car ever built and credit to FoMoCo for being brave enough to produce it... that car moved the bar a mile higher than it had been before. It was a gorgeous machine, and still is.

Mike Smith's dad did indeed work for Ford. I didn't know him personally, but he was there when I worked for Ford in Brentwood. People at Ford said he had influence over Mike's drives in the Escort RS Turbo and also in the Trakstar Sierra. I can't imagine he would have any sway over Gerry Marshall's drives though... but stranger things have happened.

[rallycrosscraig]

yes indeed MikeSmiths dad was within Ford, hence why aged 17 or so Mike Smith had a semi works supported Escort in Rallycross ( I only know this as my dad used to complain about the time he push him off at lydden wrecking the new car).

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by racer69

It's interesting to look at how many RS500s there were being used, especially in the BTCC, but there were very few teams/drivers to really get the hang of them properly to be competitive.

In the BTCC there was only really Andy Rouse Engineering (encompassing the Labatts cars & the Kaliber/ICS cars) & Trackstar who were consistently competitive, although Jerry Mahony did get a win to open the 1988 BTCC

In the ATCC you had DJR the only regular Sierra winners from 1988-1992. Longhurst's team scored a few wins, and Colin Bond got a pair of wins in the 1990 ATCC (thanks to his Toyo tyres it must be said), while most other runners locally were inconsistent when up the front.

Elsewhere you had Eggenberger & Wolf doing the bulk of the Sierra fornt-running.

Thoughts?

Part of the explanation probably lies in the immediate succes of the RS500 in late '87. Every privateer had to consider the RS500 and some jumped for it, but without, what I suspect, the technical or monetary back-up.
Talentet rallycrosser Mark Rennison sold his RS200 to finanse his '89 RS500 BTCC campain, admitting it was a very low-key orporation - and went nowhere and out of the championship before the fall. That same year the three car Terry Drury assault was at one point reduced to a single entry mid-season, put together of what was still workable. Drury though delivered the engines for rallycrosser Kenneth Hansen and was a compination that started Kenneths way to stardom.

Andy Rouse was in on the development of the Sierra RS Cosworth and by that already had intimate knowledge that no one on the British isles caught up for a couple of years. Trakstar imported the best Australian cars at the time and even built their own Dick Johnson replica for Robb Gravett's championship winning 1990 season.

In Australia the traffic went the opposite way. Dick Johnson was Sierra RS Cosworth bound from year one and held that position till around 1990. Peter Brock started his two year association with the RS500 in 1989 by buying a pair of updated Andy Rouse '88 cars and thus was partly up and running before the season started. Have also heard that these cars were Rouse kits, but don't know which version is true.
Colin Bond got a break thanks to a six-tyres-per-meeting rule in 1990 and Toyo rubber, but the only other Australian RS500 that ever challenged the DJR Shell was Glenn Seton Racing. It took two seasons of trials and tribulations before Seton generally ruled over the Shell cars in 1991.
The Tony Longhurst cars were quick but not durable enough. Andrew Miedecke could have been a candidate, since he was around from '87 as well, but always seemed to run low on cash. Somehow he didn't star when he got the second Peter Brock-seat for 1990, but had that something to do with being second to Brock in Brock's team? I'm certain that there's plenty of knowledge about that subject on this forum!

Jesper

[chunterer]

Yes I recall that the Brock cars were Andy Rouse built or at least had Rouse engines and set up assistance?

I also recall that Longhurst's Frank Gardner tended car and the Peter Jackson cars had some kind of assistance from Rouse as well. Is there any truth in that?

The other leading cars of Moffatt and Miedecke were ex Eggenberger weren't they?

[racer2_uk]

Hi Jesper, Chunter and all,

the first Brock car was definately ex-Rouse, a friend of mine owns the car and I have done some work on it, as well as Andy himself driving it at Donington RSOC day back in 2005.
The ATCC used the Group A rules until the end of '92, 2 more years than the UK which gave the teams the extra time to find even more power.

Andy

[chunterer]

So possibly just the one Brock car was ex Rouse. Jesper refers to an '88 car so would that have been the Kaliber Rouse car or the ICS Gravett car?

And with Moffatt's RS500 does anyone know which Eggenberger car he took -i'm guessing it was an earlier 1987 Texaco car, or was it a new build purchase specifically for ATCC...

These points will all be interesting to cover and important for any kind of chassis specific thread we subsequently attempt to build!

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes I recall that the Brock cars were Andy Rouse built or at least had Rouse engines and set up assistance?

I also recall that Longhurst's Frank Gardner tended car and the Peter Jackson cars had some kind of assistance from Rouse as well. Is there any truth in that?

The other leading cars of Moffatt and Miedecke were ex Eggenberger weren't they?

Moffatt's was definitely an Eggenberger. The 88 Bathurst annual suggests it was a new build customer car. Miedecke's came from the Oxo-backed Don Smith outfit Miedecke had driven for in '87, and and were of Rouse origin. There was also at least one Wolf RS500, brought to Australia by Mark Petch and Robbie Francevic- according to the Bathurst annual, a new Wolf car arrived in Australia early in 88 for Francevic, but wasn't allowed to race because of irregularities in the rear subframe, and the deal collapsed. Petch then apparently put together a deal to run one of Wolf's regular ETCC chassis at Bathurst for Francevic and Armin Hahne

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by chunterer

So possibly just the one Brock car was ex Rouse. Jesper refers to an '88 car so would that have been the Kaliber Rouse car or the ICS Gravett car?

Both of Brock's 1989 ATCC were ex-Rouse. Brock's car was Andy's 1988 BTCC car, the car that won the TT. Brad Jones' car was the Robb Gravett ICS car from 1988 (a picture in Auto Action of Brock with the car being unloaded off the plane suggests this).

The ex-Gravett car would be written off by Barry Sheene in a testing crash at Winton, however I believe the car was reshelled and used by the Mobil team in 1990. The ex-Rouse car was replaced in time for the Sandown 500 by the Mobil team's own car and was used as #105 in the 1989 enduros.

Originally Posted by chunterer

And with Moffatt's RS500 does anyone know which Eggenberger car he took -i'm guessing it was an earlier 1987 Texaco car, or was it a new build purchase specifically for ATCC...

Unconfirmed, but I believe that both the Moffat RS500s were brand new. The first car (raced with #9 in Australia and #39 in Japan) may have had only one race in Eggenberger hands at round 1 of the 1988 ETCC at Monza before being used by Moffat in that year's ATCC.

The second car (always raced with #10) was delivered to Moffat before the 1989 enduros and was only ever raced at Bathurst. I think this car returned to Australia not too long ago.

Originally Posted by KA

There was also at least one Wolf RS500, brought to Australia by Mark Petch and Robbie Francevic- according to the Bathurst annual, a new Wolf car arrived in Australia early in 88 for Francevic, but wasn't allowed to race because of irregularities in the rear subframe, and the deal collapsed. Petch then apparently put together a deal to run one of Wolf's regular ETCC chassis at Bathurst for Francevic and Armin Hahne

There were originally two Wolf Sierras brought out by Ian Paxton for Francevic's 1988 ATCC assault, but only one was used (to race at Winton, and not allowed to race at AIR). After the battles over legality, Francevic quit and went back to Petch, who had stitched up the deal with Wolf. Robbie, in fact, was supposed to drive at the Spa 24hr with Hahne and Jeff Allam until the Wolf team withdrew.

Meanwhile, the two original cars were damaged after thieves broke into the workshop where they were housed (Bob Stevens workshop, perhaps? It's been awhile since I read the article). One of the cars was entered in the enduros by Paxton - pending sponsorship - for Mike Quinn and Warwick Rooklyn. The dollars never came and the car never appeared. These two cars were then sold to Tony Longhurst, and the B&H team used them as the 2nd and spare cars until the end of 1990. One was sold to Brian Bolwell's team who raced the car sporadically in 1991, 92, and 1993, whilst the other ended up in the hands of Bryan Sala.

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Colin Bond got a break thanks to a six-tyres-per-meeting rule in 1990 and Toyo rubber...

Actually, due to the lack of suitable Toyos, Bond's wins were on Dunlops! I'll double check this, but I think it was something to do with using the taller rear tyres on the front that was the secret to Bond's success. He first did this at Winton where he started from the rear and charged through to 8th, before winning at Lakeside and Mallala.

[William Dale Jr]

Missed the edit time limit...

The tyre rule specified a maximum of 8 tyres for qualifying and racing, and that they had to be of identical rubber compound. Bond was successfully protested by Allan Moffat post-qualifying at Winton of presenting 8 tyres (which actually comprised a set of Toyos and a set of Dunlops!) that were not of identical rubber compound, despite the fact that the tyres were passed by the scrutineers after durometer tests showed that they were near-as-dammit to identical. What led to this situation was Bond's discovery during practice that the car was transformed by putting a set of the taller 660mm rear Dunlop D15s on the front. It was this discovery that resulted in Bond's charge at Winton, where he recorded faster lap times that the three cars that finished ahead of him, and his wins at Lakeside and Mallala.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

Actually, due to the lack of suitable Toyos, Bond's wins were on Dunlops! I'll double check this, but I think it was something to do with using the taller rear tyres on the front that was the secret to Bond's success. He first did this at Winton where he started from the rear and charged through to 8th, before winning at Lakeside and Mallala.

The funny thing about this was that the commentaters of the races Bond won kept on praising the performance of his Toyo tyres!

Originally Posted by KA

Miedecke's came from the Oxo-backed Don Smith outfit Miedecke had driven for in '87, and and were of Rouse origin.

They were built from Rouse kits, and got all their bits and updates from Rouse.

This is what led to Miedecke's disqualification from round 6 of the 1987 ATCC at Surfers Paradise, where he had finished 2nd. They were disqualified for a turbo irregularity, the team claiming that they received all their bits from Andy Rouse, and used to just fit them to the car, assuming they were all legal!

[racer69]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

There were originally two Wolf Sierras brought out by Ian Paxton for Francevic's 1988 ATCC assault, but only one was used (to race at Winton, and not allowed to race at AIR). After the battles over legality, Francevic quit and went back to Petch, who had stitched up the deal with Wolf. Robbie, in fact, was supposed to drive at the Spa 24hr with Hahne and Jeff Allam until the Wolf team withdrew.

Meanwhile, the two original cars were damaged after thieves broke into the workshop where they were housed (Bob Stevens workshop, perhaps? It's been awhile since I read the article). One of the cars was entered in the enduros by Paxton - pending sponsorship - for Mike Quinn and Warwick Rooklyn. The dollars never came and the car never appeared. These two cars were then sold to Tony Longhurst, and the B&H team used them as the 2nd and spare cars until the end of 1990. One was sold to Brian Bolwell's team who raced the car sporadically in 1991, 92, and 1993, whilst the other ended up in the hands of Bryan Sala.

Here is abit more about on the Wolf/Petch/Francevic/Paxton/Stevens goings on, with cameo's from Ron Dickson & Peter Brock

Originally Posted by Auto Action (#450, June 10 1988)

Whither the Wolf?

The future of the two Wolf Racing Ford Sierra's destined for this country (Australia) still remains uncertain as the Shell Series (ATCC) heads towards it close.

The car which has to date appeared briefly in Robbie Francevic's hands remains in Bob Steven's Sydney workshop, covered by a sheet, with no work done to date to rectify its apparent irregularities.

Francevic himself is currently in New Zealand, where he has apparently put together a Sandown/Bathurst budget. But whether he gets to spend that on a Wolf car remains to be seen.

Certainly, although he is due back in Sydney next week, there is no prospect of the Kiwi appearing in the remaining two Shell Series races.

If anything, the situation with the Wolf cars is becoming even more confused.

Whenever the talk is of car own Ian Paxton and Wolf Racing, the name Peter Brock still keeps appearing, with Wolf himself telling anyone who wants to ask that Brock will drive one of his Fords at the Spa 24 Hours.

A second Wolf car is of course still sitting at Wolf's workshops, with an ng one of the cars (??? thats how it is printed in the mag...not sure what it means, may have just been a typing error). Ron Dickson's name has also been mentioned in connection with the Crichton bid (perhaps thats the missing print?)

Just think - by October all this will have become perfectly clear!

[KA]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

Both of Brock's 1989 ATCC were ex-Rouse. Brock's car was Andy's 1988 BTCC car, the car that won the TT. Brad Jones' car was the Robb Gravett ICS car from 1988 (a picture in Auto Action of Brock with the car being unloaded off the plane suggests this).

The ex-Gravett car would be written off by Barry Sheene in a testing crash at Winton, however I believe the car was reshelled and used by the Mobil team in 1990. The ex-Rouse car was replaced in time for the Sandown 500 by the Mobil team's own car and was used as #105 in the 1989 enduros.

That's interesting stuff William, it pulls together a fair bit of the history of the Rouse cars- one of the problems with all of these touring car threads is filling in the subsequent history of the cars, particuarly for those as prolific as the RS500s. So the history of the 1988 Rouse cars is:

4 cars-
2x Kaliber BTCC cars for Rouse and Guy Edwards. The Rouse car going to Brock for '89. The Edwards car goes where?
1x ICS car for Pete Hall, later raced by Gravett & Mark Hales. Sold to Brock for 89, subsequently written off in Sheene's testing shunt, but possibly reshelled
1xCAM Shipping car for Laurence Bristow- again, where does this go after 88?

Two thoughts- First were the Bristow and Edwards cars retained by Rouse as any of the 4 cars run in 89, 2 in Kaliber colours and 2 in Labatt's for Bristow and Harvey?

Secondly, were these all new builds for 88, or were any of the 87 Rouse cars carried over?- I reckon on there being 4 of these:
2x ICS liveried BTCC cars, one full-season for Hall and one used in selected rounds by Rouse and Win Percy
1x red 'Tele Moustique' backed WTCC car shared with Thierry Tassin
1x car run at Spa for Semoulin/Pareja/Tassin.

There's also the car run at Bathurst 87 in ANZ colours with Moffatt, and I seem to remember there was a car raced in France by one of the Ferte brothers with Ford France backing.
I'm sure this has been discussed on here before, possibly with the conclusion these last two and the second car from Spa were all the same car- think it was in a collection in the UK in ANZ colours, along with one of the Labatt's cars and an Eggenberger.

There used to be a Rouse RS500 on display in the motor museum in Coventry- from the ICS paintjob, his 1990 BTCC car. Anyone know if it's still there, I haven't been there for about 10 years. One of the Labatt's cars was kept by Bristow and modified for Thundersaloons- think it still exists in that form

[chunterer]

Great questions KA, I've been wondering about some of this myself.

You mention the '88 Tele Moustique car. Was this the original Rouse built Cossie for '87, presumably upgraded to RS500 spec?

I'm also wondering if the car Chris Hodgetts ran towards the end of '88 BTCC was in fact that car as it was Red and I don't think it was a new built by CHMS? I think it could have been supplied by Rouse?

[racer2_uk]

Hi KA and all,

The Rouse car that went to Bathurst in '87 came back and was converted to LHD and then went to France, this car more recently was owned and raced by Martin Johnston re-painted in ANZ livery, this car has now gone back to Australia, Martin still has the Tim Harvey Labatts car and the '87 Graham Goode car, he did have the Bristow Thundersaloon car but may have sold it, he also sold the Texaco Eggenberger car that came from Japan, that went to Oakfields.
Martin is the man to ask about the European built car's.

Andy

[racer2_uk]

Hi Chunter, Chris Hodgetts raced the Brooklyn Ford 500 which I believe is still in existance.

Andy

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'm also wondering if the car Chris Hodgetts ran towards the end of '88 BTCC was in fact that car as it was Red and I don't think it was a new built by CHMS? I think it could have been supplied by Rouse?

The Hodgetts car was build and run by Brooklyn Garage, if I'm not wrong.

Jesper

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Great questions KA, I've been wondering about some of this myself.

You mention the '88 Tele Moustique car. Was this the original Rouse built Cossie for '87, presumably upgraded to RS500 spec?

I'm also wondering if the car Chris Hodgetts ran towards the end of '88 BTCC was in fact that car as it was Red and I don't think it was a new built by CHMS? I think it could have been supplied by Rouse?

I'm guessing the '87 season Rouse RS500s all started off as Cosworths before being upgraded.

I thought the Hodgetts car was built and run by Brooklyn- think they may still have it, I'm sure I''ve seen pics of it in one of the Ford mags at some point