BMW confirms Z4 GTE for American Le Mans Series

[JorritVD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

http://twitter.com/BMWUSARacing/stat...83229517434880

The 4.4 V8 is based on the engine of the M3 GTS road car.

Oke thanks, so I guess it will be a modified 4.4L GT3 engine. Most differences I guess will be more endurance (expensive) endurance parts, and a smaller restrictor.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

What would you prefer?

Option A: A BMW Z4 GTE with a V8 engine used in the Z4 GT3 and M3 GT (and M3 streetcar). Development already done and a proven engine.
Option B: No BMW in GTE because they're not allowed to use the V8. Development costs for the I6 TT are (probably) too high.

I would choose Option A.

I completely agree with you

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by cbbrit

Exactly! And when I asked an IMSA Official if I could get an entry to run an Audi R8 LMS/Ultra at Petit this year, unclassified, I was told "No! It doesn't fit our business model". Then I asked about 2013 and was told the same thing! But BMW is now allowed to run their Z4 with a non-homologated Z4 GTE V8 engine because evidently "it must fit our business model"!
As you correctly said, the rules are tailored to their every whim! What are you afraid of IMSA, that the R8 would kick the Z4's but?

I do not understand why IMSA not accept the R8.
They accept several cars with a lot of exemptions, why they do not accept one more?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I do not understand why IMSA not accept the R8.
They accept several cars with a lot of exemptions, why they do not accept one more?

Could be that Audi didn't want it raced there.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Option B: No BMW in GTE because they're not allowed to use the V8. Development costs for the I6 TT are (probably) too high.

I don't think they made it far enough to investigate. The rules are written so that you have to use the production turbos. These are low pressure turbos on the 3L and you would never be able to generate the power needed.

[Maelochs]

“as fogelhund said, ‘the engine is the heart of the car’”

So what is the transmission? The circulatory system? Kind of hard to go far without one—and the M3 had a transaxle which did not exist anywhere at all ever in any road-going BMW.

So it is all right for a purely prototype transaxle to be built and inserted where the road car had a back seat? Because transmissions don’t matter?

Sure, I get that teams have to swap in pure racing boxes because the transmissions have to deal with tremendous heat, power and torque for 24 hours, but to put it at the other end of the car? How is that different from building a 911 with the engine in front of the transaxle? Oh, because only engines matter. Hmmm …. different strokes.

As for the Z4 (and the Aston) not being on par with the rest of the GTE class … Ferrari’s 458 would ace everyone if they all had to run with street components. That’s why the Ferrari doesn’t have a handful of waivers … It is a better-performing car right off the showroom floor.

By the logic which says the Z4 doesn’t belong, neither do any of the other cars except the Ferrari.

And can I assume we’d all like to see the McLaren MP12? But wait, wouldn’t its carbon monocoque put it outside the rules? No matter, grant a waiver … after all the freaking Chassis isn’t important, only the motor. Who cares about the skeleton, only the heart matters.

Tell you what, I’d rather watch a series which matched the Vette, Aston, Porsche, Z4, McLaren and Ferrari as well as the Lotus Evora and I’d like it if the Audi R8 could get homologated somehow. With waivers being handed out freely anyway … And observing the fact that the Ferrari (and likely the Audi) could obliterate the opposition if everyone was forced to run without waivers …

Every Single Car on the grid is performance balanced to the point where the only thing that really matters is lap time anyway. This whole debate is a quest for a level of purity which never existed.

I hope the 2015 single-GT-class rules (due in 2016, I’ll wager) take into account that manufacturers no longer build their street cars to compete with one another in performance (only in sales) and devise rules which allow true GT cars like the Mercedes SLS and Porsche 911 to run with sports cars like the Viper and Audi R8 and BMW Z4 and supercars (such a precise term) like the Ferrari 458 and McLaren MP12.

The manufacturers are Not going to modify their production schedules to meet racing regulations any more—too much money involved. So the rulesmakers should write rules which fit the available cars.

No matter what, many people will be unhappy with the outcome, but if GT racing at least stays profitable enough that many manufacturers race and sell race cars to many privateers, so we can have the intense competition we have come to expect … isn’t that the best measure of success?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

What would you prefer?

Option A: A BMW Z4 GTE with a V8 engine used in the Z4 GT3 and M3 GT (and M3 streetcar). Development already done and a proven engine.
Option B: No BMW in GTE because they're not allowed to use the V8. Development costs for the I6 TT are (probably) too high.

I would choose Option A.

You should understand that bending the system puts stress on it, eventually cracks will appear. If you allow some rugby players into a football game who'd run around with the ball in their hands, then footballers who invested a lot of effort into improving their technique and playing by the rules will get P***ed off and leave, or give up practising and rely solely on the referee's help (i.e. BoP). What I just described is now called GT3(1) - a good-looking but completely meaningless class as a competition of manufacturers. It's more than fine for gentlemen drivers to play with. But when BMW Z4 GT3 beats McLaren MP4-12C GT3 it means literally nothing.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by joeb

Could be that Audi didn't want it raced there.

several times there were rumors that Audi wanted to homologate the R8 to ALMS. This is the article published for John Dagys in Speed.com in december of 2011
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-homologation/

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

“as fogelhund said, ‘the engine is the heart of the car’”

So what is the transmission? The circulatory system? Kind of hard to go far without one—and the M3 had a transaxle which did not exist anywhere at all ever in any road-going BMW.

So it is all right for a purely prototype transaxle to be built and inserted where the road car had a back seat? Because transmissions don’t matter?

Sure, I get that teams have to swap in pure racing boxes because the transmissions have to deal with tremendous heat, power and torque for 24 hours, but to put it at the other end of the car? How is that different from building a 911 with the engine in front of the transaxle? Oh, because only engines matter. Hmmm …. different strokes.

As for the Z4 (and the Aston) not being on par with the rest of the GTE class … Ferrari’s 458 would ace everyone if they all had to run with street components. That’s why the Ferrari doesn’t have a handful of waivers … It is a better-performing car right off the showroom floor.

By the logic which says the Z4 doesn’t belong, neither do any of the other cars except the Ferrari.

And can I assume we’d all like to see the McLaren MP12? But wait, wouldn’t its carbon monocoque put it outside the rules? No matter, grant a waiver … after all the freaking Chassis isn’t important, only the motor. Who cares about the skeleton, only the heart matters.

Tell you what, I’d rather watch a series which matched the Vette, Aston, Porsche, Z4, McLaren and Ferrari as well as the Lotus Evora and I’d like it if the Audi R8 could get homologated somehow. With waivers being handed out freely anyway … And observing the fact that the Ferrari (and likely the Audi) could obliterate the opposition if everyone was forced to run without waivers …

Every Single Car on the grid is performance balanced to the point where the only thing that really matters is lap time anyway. This whole debate is a quest for a level of purity which never existed.

I hope the 2015 single-GT-class rules (due in 2016, I’ll wager) take into account that manufacturers no longer build their street cars to compete with one another in performance (only in sales) and devise rules which allow true GT cars like the Mercedes SLS and Porsche 911 to run with sports cars like the Viper and Audi R8 and BMW Z4 and supercars (such a precise term) like the Ferrari 458 and McLaren MP12.

The manufacturers are Not going to modify their production schedules to meet racing regulations any more—too much money involved. So the rulesmakers should write rules which fit the available cars.

No matter what, many people will be unhappy with the outcome, but if GT racing at least stays profitable enough that many manufacturers race and sell race cars to many privateers, so we can have the intense competition we have come to expect … isn’t that the best measure of success?

I fully agree with your thinking. Very good the great detail with which you explained it!!!

[GTfour]

Good news. I love that wide arched pittbull look of the Z4.

Now let's hope we'll see a few at Le Mans...

[aneesh99]

If the ALMS has provided one thing in the last few years in a bit of a stagnant prototype field is awesome GTE racing. Retaining BMW is great, I'm excited and eager to see what it can do. Hope it doesn't reignite the waivers argument... *sarcasm*

[MitchZ06]

Just for Maelochs, carbon chassis are allowed in the rules for GTE. This was changed a year or two ago to try and entice McLaren in. So going by that the McLaren MP4-12C is a completely legal car (3.8L V8TT fits the 4L max for turbo engines, carbon chassis is allowed, gearbox is in the same spot as production car, suspension in the GT3 is the same as the road car except for racing springs and whatnot in place of the hydraulic system, etc)

As far as I'm concerned the Z4 with a V8 is what racing is about, a big loud engine in a small car. But, the way the rules have been shafted in recent years needs to be rectified soon...

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Just for Maelochs, carbon chassis are allowed in the rules for GTE. This was changed a year or two ago to try and entice McLaren in. So going by that the McLaren MP4-12C is a completely legal car (3.8L V8TT fits the 4L max for turbo engines, carbon chassis is allowed, gearbox is in the same spot as production car, suspension in the GT3 is the same as the road car except for racing springs and whatnot in place of the hydraulic system, etc)

As far as I'm concerned the Z4 with a V8 is what racing is about, a big loud engine in a small car. But, the way the rules have been shafted in recent years needs to be rectified soon...

The besserwisser in me have to correct you. McLaren had nothing to do with the lobbying to allow carbon chassis (allthough it is of course possible that the ACO themselves decided to allow carbon chassis all by themselves) . It is possible that it was Lexus whom wanted the LFA to be legal.

On another reflection, carbon tubs (basically only the driver compartment), have been allowed for many years, so the MP4-12C have been allowed in GTE since it´s inception.

[MitchZ06]

You've corrected something I never said, read it again because I never said McLaren asked for it.

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

“as fogelhund said, ‘the engine is the heart of the car’”

So what is the transmission? The circulatory system? Kind of hard to go far without one—and the M3 had a transaxle which did not exist anywhere at all ever in any road-going BMW.

So it is all right for a purely prototype transaxle to be built and inserted where the road car had a back seat? Because transmissions don’t matter?

Sure, I get that teams have to swap in pure racing boxes because the transmissions have to deal with tremendous heat, power and torque for 24 hours, but to put it at the other end of the car? How is that different from building a 911 with the engine in front of the transaxle? Oh, because only engines matter. Hmmm …. different strokes.

As for the Z4 (and the Aston) not being on par with the rest of the GTE class … Ferrari’s 458 would ace everyone if they all had to run with street components. That’s why the Ferrari doesn’t have a handful of waivers … It is a better-performing car right off the showroom floor.

By the logic which says the Z4 doesn’t belong, neither do any of the other cars except the Ferrari.

And can I assume we’d all like to see the McLaren MP12? But wait, wouldn’t its carbon monocoque put it outside the rules? No matter, grant a waiver … after all the freaking Chassis isn’t important, only the motor. Who cares about the skeleton, only the heart matters.

Tell you what, I’d rather watch a series which matched the Vette, Aston, Porsche, Z4, McLaren and Ferrari as well as the Lotus Evora and I’d like it if the Audi R8 could get homologated somehow. With waivers being handed out freely anyway … And observing the fact that the Ferrari (and likely the Audi) could obliterate the opposition if everyone was forced to run without waivers …

Every Single Car on the grid is performance balanced to the point where the only thing that really matters is lap time anyway. This whole debate is a quest for a level of purity which never existed.

I hope the 2015 single-GT-class rules (due in 2016, I’ll wager) take into account that manufacturers no longer build their street cars to compete with one another in performance (only in sales) and devise rules which allow true GT cars like the Mercedes SLS and Porsche 911 to run with sports cars like the Viper and Audi R8 and BMW Z4 and supercars (such a precise term) like the Ferrari 458 and McLaren MP12.

The manufacturers are Not going to modify their production schedules to meet racing regulations any more—too much money involved. So the rulesmakers should write rules which fit the available cars.

No matter what, many people will be unhappy with the outcome, but if GT racing at least stays profitable enough that many manufacturers race and sell race cars to many privateers, so we can have the intense competition we have come to expect … isn’t that the best measure of success?

Thank you for taking your time to answer and explain it to me.
And first of all let me apologize because in my previous post I only stated the fact that I'm against an engine change, but didn't add that I can accept it in order to see that car on the grid. Seems I've made your blood boil a little bit maybe

Actually I'm not unhappy with the outcome, if it's the only way to see a Z4 in GTE, then fine. And never said it doesn't belong to the same category as the 911 or 458, for me the more variety on the grid the better. And I agree with you, adding R8s and MP-12s would be cool too.
I understand that in order to achieve that variety you need to make some changes, sometimes really big changes to the cars, and then there are the (in)famous waivers and BoP too.

I'm not totally against those things, just wish the cars stayed a little more "real", if you know what I mean, that's all.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

more variety on the grid the better.

Hehe anyone ever hear of quality over quantity...

I'm not advocating a class with only Ferraris, we have it it;s called Challange..

I'm just saying that in a class where Astons, Corvettes, Porsches, Ferraris, Lotus-es, and Vipers, are more or less on par with each other, you don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate BMWs...They simply muddy the waters too much and don't really add that much to an already excellent show.

The point people don't seem to realize is that with so many waivers being thrown around, we've lost any idea if speed is being generated from Manufacturer development or from the BoP...(I guess this doesn't matter to people who just wanna watch prrty shapes moving in circles)

I mean what's the point of developing a race car at all when the guy next door will be faster then you with no work entered at all. All he has to do is cry a river and get's performance breaks which it then abuses to no end, Ala BMW M3 GTR...

Sorry for the rant, I thought z4 is ACO as well.... For ALMS only I guess it makes sense since the series is getting it's ass owned by Nascar....

[lms]

there is no point comparing the m3 to the z4 one is a "touring car" the other is a gt so the z4 should be allowed to race in gte. I hope it will eventually make it to the wec because alms wont be around in 2014.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

You've corrected something I never said, read it again because I never said McLaren asked for it.

Read my reply again, please. The only thing I corrected was that McLaren had nothing to do with it. If the ACO changed the rules, it was not to entice McLaren, since the MP4-12C was already legal.

[MitchZ06]

Sorry, that bit wasn't clear to me.

[TF110]

If it's carbon CHASSIS (not tubs) cars, the Lexus LFA is the only one (that we know of) that has had any GTE rumors.

[Fogelhund]

Note, the Z4 will be fully homologated by the ACO here, it hasn't been yet, but will be.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Note, the Z4 will be fully homologated by the ACO here, it hasn't been yet, but will be.

As was the Viper. Seems the ACO is fine with granting initial waivers to get a car in the class. From your twitter exchange, Mr Elkins comments about the car fitting into the current rules was interesting... And he made the point that the other manufacturers have to agree to let it in or not. So if the car was within the rules why would it need the other manufacturers to allow it? Am I missing something?

[MitchZ06]

Stops them publically whinging

[Tzyghan]

Originally Posted by joeb

As was the Viper. Seems the ACO is fine with granting initial waivers to get a car in the class. From your twitter exchange, Mr Elkins comments about the car fitting into the current rules was interesting... And he made the point that the other manufacturers have to agree to let it in or not. So if the car was within the rules why would it need the other manufacturers to allow it? Am I missing something?

That's the american way - "you agreed with that, so what's the problem?"

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Tzyghan

That's the american way - "you agreed with that, so what's the problem?"

Except in this case, it appears to be the French way.