too Many series & Too many clubs

[diz]

Some dozen, or so, years ago Nicola Foulston commissioned a Market Research company to quiz the spectators as to what classes they preferred to watch. This led to BHL grading all championships from A to F. Grade E could only appear at Snett and Cadwell, A to D at all four BHL venues and Grade F at none of them. The higher the grade of meeting, the higher the gate fee for the spectators.
Did she get it right? NO.
IIRC Grade A was TOCA + Superbikes, Grade B included Citroen 2CVs' and Big Boys Beetles. Now hear this The National Formula Three Championship was Grade C [inferior to CVs' and Bugs].
I was totally miffed with the whole thing as my Formula E Ford 1600 Championship [big grids, sometimes qualification races, close racing and well thought of] was graded F i.e. not welcome at any BHL venue. I kept it going for a couple more years at Silverstone [BRDC were pleased to have us] Thruxton, Donington, Pembrey etc., but finally lost interest.

[diz]

Originally posted by pitcrew
We need one govening body to take all the clubs under its wing and then direct and organize all of the classes and tweak the grids, etc
just needs tidying up!
dont need to stop people competing just refine everything

Makes mental note to form a governing body to do this. Think I'll call it the MSA.

[neilwaynesmith]

Originally posted by diz
Makes mental note to form a governing body to do this. Think I'll call it the MSA.

[ss_collins]

red dog - I have heard figures that 750 MC was one of the highest gates at an MSV circuit - with the exception of the big stuff BTCC, Bikes etc...

F3 is not as big a draw as it thinks it is - Beetles are popular as the have a vast following (Bug Jam anyone?)

Also clubbies are not promoted at the moment - but a number of the vee drivers are looking at getting Vee to be somthing speccies want to see - after all it offers everything you want from motor racing (as a punter) and does it in a fun way.

Or in other words - more GIRLS!

[DougK]

My 10p's worth!
I don't think the issue is with the number of clubs, its more with their organisation! 750MC organise things well as they organise one race meeting at a time nationally. BARC and BRSCC need to scrap regional organising and do it on a national level meaning each weekend the club only organise ONE meeting each (excluding sprints , hillclimbs etc).
The clubs need to work together and organise series between them as there are too many small grids with similar cars. BARC often have races with only 12 or so cars entered - why not combine two series in one race. They can still keep the same structure and be run as seperate championships just race at the same time!

I have always said entry for spectators is too expensive. If it was afiver more people would come and the circuit/clubs would make bags of money on food/drinks and goodies. We may also then be able to encourage some new drivers and marshals from the crowds.

IMO BRSCC and BARC (and BRDC!) waste tons of money not actually doing what they are there for...organising and running car championships. The social side of things is secondary and I am sure the members would organise these for themselves.

I'm a marshal not a driver and I get so fed up with small grids that I pick and choose the meeting I attend based on this. I am sure many of my colleageues are now doing the same. IMHO 750MC do the right thing and so do MGCC and AMOC - BRDC,BRSCC and BARC could improve.

[ss_collins]

750 organise social stuff too...

[DougK]

I know but, they don't seem to waste money and they treat the marshals well!
They are also better organised and have a less (how can I put this) "superior" attitude.

[Alan Crook]

Originally posted by DougK
My 10p's worth!
750MC organise things well as they organise one race meeting at a time nationally.

750MC have been known to run 2 race meetings on the same day. Mallory & Snetterton come to mind as does Formula Student at Bruntigthorpe & Pembrey.

I have no problem with clubs running more than 1 race meeting on the same day providing they are capable.

I would like to see the MSA address the situation where meetings at Silverstone, Mallory, Rockingham & Donington happen on the same day this has happened at least twice this year. Meetings should not be on at Brands & Lydden the same day nor Castle Combe & Thruxton.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by DougK
BARC and BRSCC need to scrap regional organising and do it on a national level meaning each weekend the club only organise ONE meeting each (excluding sprints , hillclimbs etc).

So, for example, Croft should be denied a meeting because a club is running one at Castle Combe? Maybe one of the strengths of clubs like BARC & BRSCC is that they ARE regionalised?

[Tim Falce]

Originally posted by Alan Crook
Meetings should not be on at Brands & Lydden the same day nor Castle Combe & Thruxton.

So as Brands has meetings nearly every weekend from March to November Lydden should be denied any meetings or vice versa. A sure way to see circuits die.

[diz]

Originally posted by Alan Crook
I would like to see the MSA address the situation where meetings at Silverstone, Mallory, Rockingham & Donington happen on the same day this has happened at least twice this year. Meetings should not be on at Brands & Lydden the same day nor Castle Combe & Thruxton.

I got fed up with Aintree always having to change dates to accomodate Oulton's changes, when I was Comp Sec in the 70s' In 1975, I thought "stuff them" and ran a conflicting meeting. My meeting featured Non Championship Formula 3 [Gunnar Nillson etc.] paying double the amount of prize money that the national championship paid. With better support races, we claimed the lions share of the entries, marshals and spectators. John Webb was not a happy man, but I had proved a point.

Funnily enough, two new regulations appeared in the 1976 Blue Book. Strange that !!
1. Clubs could not pay prize money higher than the recognised championship.
2. Race meetings on the same day at circuits within 40 road miles could not take place. Strange that as well.

Whether these two regs still exist, I don't know, but at least my tombstone could say "This man managed to get the Blue Book changed"

[gixxer]

Yes i think having regions within motorsport has got to be a strength as you'll have a rep fighting for his or her region making it easier for the smaller circuits to have their say and not get over looked when it comes to setting out the entertainment for the season perhaps limiting the amount of motorsport on at a weekend could help swell the numbers through the gate making it more profitable for the smaller circuits

[ss_collins]

Alan - you are correct but it should be pointed out the FStudent is a co promotion with ImechE and takes less club resources than Pembrey.

I personally think the big clubs should stick to running national series - like 750 do, do the BRSCC really need thier centres - after all most circuits have a 'resident' club - SEMSEC at Lydden (BARC SE at Brands & Lydden), DDMC at Croft etc...

I still hold that Castle Combe have it the right way... always gets a crowd too.

[gixxer]

castle combe seems to be able to get a good crowd to most meetings it runs even a non championship superbike race attracted 30,000 spectators so they've got something right,perhaps its down to advertising whatever it is nobody seems to be able to unlock it like castle combe has!

[MGDavid]

>>>whatever it is nobody seems to be able to unlock it like castle combe has!
===By restricting supply! IIRC Combe is only allowed 12 meetings per year under local planning rules, so they plan the 12 events that will make most money (don't ask me how they do that without a crystal ball but MidgetMax may add some background). Anyway, West Country is a special case as for another unknown reason motor sport in general appears to be far more acceptable/ popular/ welcomed down there.
Seem to be the same old circular arguments on this thread - but one point I've not seen is that if you don't keep some ultra-cheap series like Maestros then how do you attract the same quantity of new racers in at the bottom? We are not all well-heeled, I had to wait until the family grew up before starting circuit racing and even then it was Penelope who lent me a car to get me going. IMO all we need is the MSA to do their job a little more assiduously, but I fancy they won't until more racers get involved in the running of our sport and are prepared to put up for committees etc. Too many drivers think of themselves as consumers or customers, a short-sighted view IMO.

[R59]

This is a good rant if I've ever seen one.

Firstly, if we are to survive, we must get punters through the gate. So attitudes like "I don't think about the spectators" are not any good.

To get the punters through the gate we have to be promoted in the media (not the motorsport publications. No point preaching to the converted). I recently passed Snetterton on the A11. Apart from some small brown signs, I wouldn't have known it was there. Where's the big billboard showing what's on, and what's on soon, and how much it'll cost the punters!

Then... make an effort to fill the grids, brimming full.
That means amalgamating championships which can't fill a grid properly.

I don't care whether it's the BARC, BRSCC, BRDC, MGCC, 750MC, if there has to be cross-club amalgamations, then it's up to the MSA to deal with it.

There appears to be no championship management in motorsport beyond the big National championships. The rest of us in clubbie land are fractionised, and there appear to be more and more fractions of small numbers of people.

Yes, in recent times, the 750MC have gone about things in a proper manner. You want to start a new series, then they fit you in as a sub-class of an existing series, and once you've got enough competitors to stand on your own, you are allowed to. If it falls over, the remaining competitors can be absorbed into that "holding" championship.

I could go on, I've said it all before.

Cut, scythe, trim, massacre, chop, rotorvate, exterminate exterminate. Trim trim trim.

But, the reality is... let's see how many new championships will be announced at Autosport?

Rob.

[ss_collins]

A fair few I imagine

[gixxer]

far too many but i doubt that any lessons will be learned as the barc are planning an open sports cars champoinship next year.That was tryed by the brscc a few years ago and that failed badly so can't really see why this should be any differant

[Ian Sowman]

gixxer - it is not a 'new' championship. It is the existing National Supersports championship rebadged and with a few more cars allowed in. It is doing EXACTLY what many people have been crying out for - i.e. open up classes to sweep up a number of different types of car hence REDUCING the number of series...

[gixxer]

Maybe so ian but it still remains fact when the Prosport 3000 was a stand alone champoinship it also failed after a few years so the open sportscar champoinship was tried and failed due to lack of interest.Even castle combe's gt champoinship struggled this year even with added classes.I must admit there's plenty of radicals around these days unlike a few years ago,if a established gt [ok one track championship]which in the past has had bulging grids is struggling why should this new venture be any different?

[Ian Sowman]

But the point remains gixxer is that it is a championship that will probably attract larger grid next season than it did this, as more cars are being allowed in. The calendar, race lengths and entry fees also look rather attractive.

[Al Weyman]

Because it is all about money and the sooner everyone realises this and starts acting in a more business like fashion to put on an entertaining show that people will pay to watch and no more of that 'Sod the public, I race for my own enjoyment' attitude and the oranising clubs attitude 'As long as we get enough entries to cover the expenses and if we don't we will just keep putting up the fees, we are not interested in the public', and the track owners 'As long as we get the track let out we don't care either' then the whole thing will eventually implode and die.

Edited for spelling mistakes.

[R59]

Here here!

Rob.

[topwelshman]

Originally posted by Al Weyman
Because it is all about money and the sooner everyone realises this and starts acting in a more business like fashion to put on an entertaining show that people will pay to watch and no more of that 'Sod the public, I race for my own enjoyment' attitude and the oranising clubs attitude.

Here Here, Here here, I'll say it again here here. I think alot of people forget that us racers are actually extremely lucky to be doing so, whether you like it or not you are on display and people pay good money to watch us. This is a business, it's alot of fun as well but it's a business and people like the circuit employees, race mechanics and some teams make their living from this sport and everyone of us should not forget this. Unless the public get a decent deal for parting with their hard earned the sport will not flourish and our costs will just keep increasing in a futile attempt to repair the loss of income from poor ticket sales due in part to to the poor quality & grids of some championships and lack of professionalism and economic understanding

[Tracey]

so when you're leading a race by a country mile, and you know it's a bit tedious, do you think 'I'd better spin here and create some drama just for the paying public to be entertained?' No, I didn't think so.

And do the clubs think - we have to entertain the public? No - probably, please God, let us break even on this one.

And do the circuits care, as long as they have enough income to keep in profit? No.

I'm sorry, but I can't see anything changing this, unless the governing body takes some hefty action